All discussion here!
Best, Ron
Wow! 10% of the primary goal in the first hour! I am resisting the urge to jump up and down and shout "Go! Go!" considering that we are talking about pledging money. But I do feel like running around hugging people.
Best, Ron
Wow, you can actually watch the money tally go up in real time. That is crazy.
It's insane! It's just shy of 30% to the primary goal, and I've hardly blinked! Who knew?
Best, Ron
Gladly backed with an anticipatory extra $5 for hard copy shipping. Next step will be finding people to play with me.
Yay! Congratulations! Happy to see this off to a good start.
In the interests of adding something useful to the conversation, have you looked at Kicktraq, Ron? That link goes to the Sorcerer Upgrade Kicktraq. It looks at what your project's trending toward. Right now there's not enough data to reliably predict how it will end (I'm sure you know most projects spike in the beginning and at the end and have a slow middle), but it'll be fun to keep an eye on.
Oh damn, I forgot to put the link in there. Please merge this link in with my previous post: Kicktraq (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/847190685/sorcerer-upgrade/)
Zowie! The Prince of Darkness (Joe Prince) took it to $512!
More to follow on the site. I had plans to juice the next step a little, but had no idea I'd have to make them ready this fast.
Best, Ron
I have a very blunt question which I think can only be posed within the constraints of this webpage.
Is there any imaginable reason I should create new stretch goals? Remember, I have no motive to blow the top value up past some amount over $10,000, either for profit or for ego. The Kickstart isn't intended to show how much I can make this way.
My current inclination is to be blunt: hey, if you want to pledge to get the books, that's great. Whatever value we end up with is merely an epiphenomenon as far as I'm concerned. There won't be another stretch goal - more people pledging only means that more people get books, and that's all.
If you can think of some reason that's not good - but remember, "But you could make so much more!!!" is not an argument in my book - then please let me know.
Best, Ron
You seemed interested in doing some high end spiffy version of the book (and I think you mentioned involving Narrativa). That is the only goal I would even consider adding. And then I would only do so if (a) you have the cost break downs of that planned out and know exactly what you need to make that happen and (b) are willing to add a new reward tier that basically boils down to Pledge X and if we make it to Y, you will get this spiffy high end version of the book.
But that doesn't appear to be part of your agenda with this Kickstarter, so I wouldn't bother. It wouldn't bother me in the least if you made a whole separate Kickstarter for an extra cool version of the book. But then, I've not (emotionally) bought into the crazy Kickstarter culture.
So, no, Ron if you don't have any further goals, then that's that.
Jesse
I agree with Jesse, and I have kinda emotionally bought into the whole KS culture, painful to admit tho it is. That said, I would add the wrinkle that, if there is some kinda super-dream Sorcerer project (Sorcerer brand tequila? Commissioning an opera? ) that this may be a very good chance to get there, since you may be benefiting from a large fund of goodwill built up over the years that may not be available as easily again.
That, however, is literally the only argument I can think of for more stretch goals.
Thanks guys! I appreciate your thoughts and am looking forward to more of them.
As far as goodwill is concerned, my take is that fulfilling these great-looking books in a timely fashion will give everyone a great buzz of "we said we'd do X, and we did it!" With any luck, there won't be a decrease of goodwill, as if it were a tank of fluid that I'd just tapped, but rather a confirmation that it existed for a good reason in the first place, and therefore it's still with us, even strengthened.
Best, Ron
Yes, I agree with Ron on the good-will: one would presume that doing a successful small project would increase your stature and affirm the quality of your work to the audience. This then translates into a firmer and more active support base in possible future projects. There's no reason to think that you need to milk backers for as much money as possible all at once. The only concrete advantage of snowballing an individual crowdfunding drive as big as you can is related to publicity logistics, as you've already gathered the audience; pretty much the same advantage can be gained by asking all the backers for their email addresses so you can write them when your next project comes up.
I would have subscribed to the "you might not ever get this level of excited interest again" viewpoint a few years earlier, when crowdfunding was still new and doing it had an element of novelty to it. At that point it's possible that a significant amount of some specific project's funding might have come from novelty excitement that could not be repeated. (I don't know if this was the case in fact, I haven't followed the development of crowdfunding culture closely enough.)
Also, Ron: if you would, could you use the update feature of Kickstarter when discussing the development of the project with the backers? Putting your on-going commentary in the main body of the text makes it increasingly more difficult to parse for newcomers. You'll be getting new people who only just now hear about the project for two weeks, still, after all. Using the updates blogging tool enables you to add your own musings and document changes without putting it all on the main page.
Oooh! Update function? Who knew?
Best, Ron
I'm a huge fan of this focused style of Kickstarter - it's great to see it doing so well.
I just checked out the sample chapter annotations which are looking excellent, in context. In case you hadn't noticed it, there did seem to be an error with the examples of dice rolling, though: in the ties sections, G wins (rather than A), and J wins (rather than H).
The "heavy metal grimoire" version of Sorcerer you'd mentioned would be something you might think about if you blow past $10k, once you figure out the logistics of costs and time for such, and make sure to set a pledge level at you're comfortable with (that pays out) for that amount of time and effort.
Other than that, additional goals for you specifically, given your stated goals and feelings about KS, should only be things that you've wanted to do but haven't yet due lack of people throwing money at you to do it. If there is anything like that. For example, writing some supplement or book that you didn't have the time to handle (because you have to work to pay bills, dammit); or something you have wanted done for/with Sorcerer by another writer or artist (or whatever), but haven't had the funds to pay them fairly to even ask for that work.
Like others have already said: things that you would have liked to add to the books (more art for example?).
One thing that I don't know if it's feasible at all (and could screw up the shipping cost calculations) but it would be nice: making the books hardcovers. Even without having a fancy deluxe edition, only to make them sturdier and more resistant to (ab)use. Or, if the hardcover would cost too much, anything that could increase their durability (sewn-binding, maybe?)
These "things you would have liked to add" could even not be about the book at all, but something on the website for example. I don't know: what would you like to do with more money?
As far as I can tell, any further stretch goal is best described as digging a hole so I can fill it in. I'd much rather return to ordinary profit-making publishing, using the funds garnered as a solid base to publish whatever comes next.
(Editing this in: the time vs. work issue doesn't apply to me so well, because my day job is what it is, no matter what; Kickstart money won't reduce my professor time-and-effort a bit. Same goes for parenting time-and-effort, squared! That point is by no means incorrect, but I'm the wrong candidate.)
Also, as far as fancy formats are concerned, I think that arranging that with Narrattiva as its own entity is the best plan. Claudia and Michele and I have discussed both translation for the Italian and other markets (fingers crossed for Japanese!), which is one thing; and the possible production of a fancy deluxe Heavy Metal version, which is another. For those who don't know, these are the people who produced a copy of My Life with Master which is literally six feet across when open - they are totally insane when it comes to fancy limited editions, so what they could conceive regarding Sorcerer, I have no idea. Battery-operated, three speeds? The mind boggles. Anyway, these two projects seem best divorced from all things Kickstart, so that both Adept and Narrattiva can privately and productively mate in whatever manner produces useful progeny for both.
Making the real books is going to be its own hassle, including the grinding details of cover design and going through the printer-bid process. I do say it will be a pleasure finally to see the core book's cover in its actual planned color scheme, which was definitely not the same as what was eventually printed. But it ain't easy, and there isn't anyone I just farm this task to, so producing anything beyond that is definitely not on my good list.
So! I think that presently, probably when and if the pledges hit the $10,000 mark, I'll have to announce that there will be no more stretch goals, and that further funding is (i) much-appreciated, (ii) effectively a security foundation against inevitable disasters, and (iii) otherwise effectively a purchase of one's books and a small donation to Adept Press. The good news is that the more books I print, the less I pay per copy and the more my contribution to its postage is offset, so at least that's in my favor.
Best, Ron
Here's another brainstorming topic.
Now that the first wave of enthusiasm is cresting, and that new people are arriving who are probably only looking at the list of pledge rewards, I think I need to alter things a bit. Since adding a stretch goal - the usual re-ignite strategy - isn't going to happen, what seems most reasonable to me is adding a $50 pledge level to replace the one that's full.
As a related topic, I'm kind of bummed that nobody has pledged for the instructional videos, which to me is the most valuable thing on that whole list. I'm not sure whether it's over-priced, or whether no one wants it. If the former, then I can eliminate the original (I can edit a pledge reward if it's empty) and replace it with the $50 value. But I'm not sure if that's what's going on. Maybe it is - my impression is that a lot of people pledged $50 not because they were into tequila, but because it was a good price-point.
Any other thoughts on what might be a good $50 pledge reward? I'm especially thinking in terms of some feature at the Adept website, which can be customized in content per pledger. One thing I'm not interested in doing, though, is writing up backgrounds and one-sheets for playing Sorcerer, as I've decided that is actually a distraction from learning to play the game well and best saved for people who really know the game. Damn I wish I had trained in drawing! I would love to provide character portraits or concept art for people playing Sorcerer. So, any suggestions?
Best, Ron
Editing in: well, I made the executive decision to alter the video reward. I really wanted to make a bunch of these anyway! Still, all thoughts are welcome.
You should add a limited edition, signed, hardcover Kickstarter version of Sorcerer 2.0 at a $50 pledge level.
The reason: I want one.
It's also very Kickstartery.
And please tell me I don't have to answer anti-bot questions every time I want to post in this forum . . .
On the instructional video offering (currently $50 pledge), it's a bit odd. I know you love teaching, Ron, and that's certainly a fair price for the amount of work you'd put in, but people coming to the KS probably aren't reacting the way you're expecting. As a person who backs a LOT of KS games, one aspect that is frequently a concern to backers is gameplay and mechanics. Many KS game projects look very pretty, but that doesn't mean the games are any good. While Sorcerer is well established in the Indie RPG community, you want to attract new fans, and KS is a great platform for that. New fans, however, aren't familiar with the gameplay of Sorcerer, and their reaction to the instructional video offering may very well be, "How poorly written is this rulebook that I need a special 8 minute instructional video from the creator just to play the game?"
For my part I'm not interested in instruction videos because learning things from a moving picture is a pain. It combines the worst parts of text and face-to-face learning in that you can't read at your pace, but you can't ask questions as they occur, either. (Of course I don't feel like I have any glaring problems with grogging Sorcerer, either.)
Regarding ideas for things to put on the website, I would actually be moderately interested in the sort of fluff you mention as unsuitable. You don't write a lot in the pure ideas department, but I usually enjoy it when you do, so a "Sorcerer mini-setting" or "campaign idea" or "a random demon with your name on it" would be enjoyable. I suspect that I wouldn't be alone in this. If you wanted to personalize something like this, you could do "relationship map scenario according to Sorcerer's Soul precepts set in your home country / state". At least I'd be amused by the thought of sending Ron to study up on the local color of Illinois or whatever.
Aside from that... personalized digital content is a pretty tricky thing. I'm thinking of playmats (a printable/laminable thing you can dice things on and that includes rules references) and GM screens and such, but for the most part these'd make more sense as stretch goals than individualized rewards. Poetry? I could totally imagine that as something I'd do (having done it on and off all my life), but it's something you need to have trained, same as drawing.
Autographed books are an old warhorse for these sorts of situations, but that goes into the physical realm.
Hi,
Welcome, Lawrence! I think your bot experience is concluded; from now on it trusts you.
I'm asking something from the Kickstarter audience which maybe isn't typical, but maybe it's time for some people to be exposed to the idea. The idea is that money which goes into production cannot be the same money considered ROI. The same penny can't play both roles. So to me, I can't imagine ever, ever running a Kickstart in which a goal is a product for the consumer. In the current case, I wanted to print physical copies from the excess Kickstart funds anyway, so calling it a new goal is merely gloss for my plan anyway. But outside of such fortuitous circumstances, which in my case are made more so because the more books, the cheaper they are to print, I think the all-too-common trend of rewarding financial accumulation with product is idiotic. At the very best, it's a zero-sum subroutine within the larger cycle that threatens to go negative and overtake it - as evidenced by so many screwed-up Kickstarts, despite the more visible and widely touted - but much fewer! - spectacular successes. I'd even argue that a successful Kickstart loaded with stretch goals and add-ons is a much more disastrous outcome, on the average, than a failed one.
Most simply, goals are what the Kickstarter guy gets, and rewards are what the pledgers get. If I run more Kickstarts, that's the mantra.
I am optimistic about the instructional videos. For one thing, I can at least point to them when people ask questions about the system, and believe me, after 16 years of watching people unnecessarily complicate what is a truly effective and flexible resolution technique, it's needed. "Oh, that's all? But that's so easy!" No more Risk-type matching pairs, no more stressing about matched values beneath the highest value, no more defaulting to unconstructed and fiat-tainted Over the Edge resolution. Text alone won't do it. Role-players don't read text; they skim it and fill in the content with what's already in their heads.
As for making them effective, no one has ever produced what I have in mind for them, and with any luck, by the end of the Kickstart period, the raw footage at the site will have evolved into something pretty surprising. Have a little faith based on past events, Eero - it wouldn't be the first time I did something you hadn't imagined would work as it did.
Best, Ron
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 05, 2013, 07:23:50 PMAt the very best, it's a zero-sum subroutine within the larger cycle that threatens to go negative and overtake it...
Yes, only if you don't do the financial analysis.
To me it seems you're looking at this from a...really weird perspective, Ron. I'm hearing from you that you perceive stretch goals as "I want more money, but this makes more work for me, without any more actual money, so it's stupid".
But when someone puts a stretch goal out there they obviously factor extra profit in to comfortably cover both the original goals and the stretch --
you don't spend one penny twice. At least not if you're doing it right. Because it's "If we hit $10k, I will have enough
net profit to do THIS thing as originally planned, and to do THIS thing now, too."
If you've set-up your KS such that each pledge for the books only earns you enough profit to produce THOSE pledged-for books, then yeah, stretch goals ARE going to fuck you over and make absolutely no sense in that context.
Moving on from that, to the videos. It's not a lure to me at all, for the same reasons Eero posits. I've always found informational videos deeply annoying because I can read much faster than that, and yet can't ask questions. I don't listen to podcasts for the same reason: people just talk too slowly, and if I do miss something, backing up and re-listening is a pain. Plus I can't easily reference it. An e-mail, a forum discussion, and a one-on-one chat are just more useful in multiple ways. So I just absolutely don't see a value for me.
This might be the stumbling block with your perception of their value and the wider perception of their value, however: that you are doing something with the videos unlike anyone has ever seen before. Well...exactly. I pop on, I see "instructional video, $25", and my only point of reference is every other instructional video ever produced anywhere. I can't get excited over "a thing I've never seen before that will blow my mind!" because...what's that? What does that even mean? There's no explanation here or on the KS page. So I can't assign any value to it. I can't judge whether or not it is a good buy.
If it isn't just an instructional video, I don't know WHAT it is because there's nothing to tell me how it will be valuable to me and in what way. Right now a backers' only point of reference is $25 for an 8-minute video of something they could e-mail you about instead. This should absolutely be rectified if you feel it is different from and more valuable than what everyone else thinks of when they see "instructional video".
Also, it seems strange as a buy-in: wouldn't this be something you should just make anyways, if players have needed these sorts of instructions put this way for years? It tells me this is a far more valuable tool for you than limiting videos to whomever asks a question about whatever. As such, it seems better as a stretch goal: At $20k, Ron makes 10 8-minute videos clarifying common misunderstandings of the rules and play style of Sorcerer (or whatever they are/do).
That becomes valuable to everyone, which is your stated point with the videos. It's not a "per backer benie" the way "my copy of the books" or "my game session with Ron Edwards" or "my game, fully playtested and critiqued" is.
We'll see what the videos tactic brings me. You guys don't like them, and that's fine, but I think it'll work out well. I'm also taking the long view - not seeking more-more-more pledges in the moment, but rather thinking in terms of utility and people saying, "Yeah, those are great, I'm sure glad they were in the Kickstart all those years ago," or using them as references in rules discussions.
Raven, your summary nails it:
QuoteI'm hearing from you that you perceive stretch goals as "I want more money, but this makes more work for me, without any more actual money, so it's stupid".
I concede that
if the proposed amount creates a big enough slush fund that the net gain remains, and
if the labor and hassle of the new widget is within the Kickstarter's capabilities and comfort zone, then it's not arrant stupidity, merely additional activity. It's still accepting a huge risk that either of those will suddenly do an orca barrel role and bare its teeth unexpectedly, which is SOP for publishing RPGs in my experience. I'd rather gain a lower total amount and then work on whatever it is as a new project, Kickstarting again to make up the difference if necessary, with a solid win on the previous track record widely acknowledged and acting as a good-will factor.
Best, Ron
I've published exactly zero books. However, I'm guessing that while the amount of money it takes to print 1,000 hardcover books is higher than printing 1,000 softcover books, the amount of work for the author is approximately the same.
Kickstarters are a great way for a creator/merchant to determine demand before producing supply. I confess I don't really get the need for BGGesque missives. If you have customers who want X, and you can produce X and make more money in the process, I don't think any sins have been committed.
As it stands, you have at least one customer desiring to purchase a kick-ass hardcover Kickstarter exlusive Sorcerer book. A really pretty one. If you don't want to, that's fine---but I may print the PDF on heavy stock paper and stick it in a 3-ring binder, just to be petulant.
And I still have to do the captcha stuff.
Hey Lawrence, debate tends to be un-barred at this site, at least in terms of values and ideas. I speak very, very plainly here. But it doesn't mean my mind can't be changed, and there are at least a few days available for the necessary processing before I hit the THAT'S IT button, one way or the other.
So you guys know: Lawrence is my best friend. He and I went through much educational and cultural hell together throughout the 1990s, he was best man at my wedding, he saw Sorcerer go through every bit of its embryonic period and even got me to its first public unveiling at a game store play-day. We may well say awful things to one another in front of you, so be aware if we do, it's no big deal.
Best, Ron
Bah---you ruined it.
But, to be sure, I'll be very happy if I get Sorcerer in PDF form, softcover, or hardcover (happy++). The only thing I'd be unhappy about as a consumer is buying softcover during the KS and seeing hardcover a year from now. I doubt that would happen, though.
We (used because KS creates a goal-oriented community) should remember, though, that KS will give us a much larger audience, and the vast majority of RPGers who stumble across Sorcerer are used to mainstream RPGs. it will blow their minds, Tim and Eric style.
http://youtu.be/9CS7j5I6aOc
I'd say that there is a middle way, since the PDF is going to be provided in "hey print this yourself if you want" format.
if folks want a hardcover, they can take the PDF and use a print-on-demand service to print their own hardcover. I've even say that we can make sure to provide cover files appropriate for printing your own hardcover, to make this easy.
(I'm just saying that if Ron decides not to do hardcovers, it's not like they'll be impossible to have).
Erm, I might not quite have understood. But with the printing thing... does the whole shebang get printed, or only the annotated core book?