[Circle of Hands] Questions after reading: Magic

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron!

I did put the CoH manual on the shelf, saying "I don't really have the time to read it now", but I could not resist the temptation too long... so now I have read it up to the magic chapter. And I have some questions...

1A) Page 119, the three durations: prolonged is defined as "operating throughout the current scene": at first reading it seems to mean that the next scene, the spell will not be active anymore (even if it's in the same place, if the "continuity in time" was broken by another scene elsewhere). It's correct?

1B) If that's the correct interpretation, some spell see their utility severely diminished (for example, Light, or Blank). By the other hand, another scene mean that the Brawn spent in casting spell is returned, so the caster can cast the spell again.   If someone, in a dark cavern, wants to have a magical source of light the entire time, has to cast the spell every scene? Or it's a form of Enchantment? (see question 5 and 7, below)

2) "Ritual: no" means that the spell can be cast without a ritual, but it can be cast inside a ritual anyway, yes? While "Ritual: yes" means that the spell can be cast only during rituals?  [why not simply write "ritual" only in the description of this latter category?]

3) page 122, "Balm", the spell restore 3 points, fixed, and at the end of the description, under "Variant/options", you write "A single additional die may be rolled by pumping 1 brawn, but no more". I assume that this means that by pumping 1 brawn (for a total of two brawn spent)  the caster restore 3+1d6 points to both Brawn and Quickness?

4) I seem to recall (but maybe I am misremembering a rule from another game) that in the draft a target of "one person" did mean that caster could not cast the spell to himself.  But I see that that in "Balm" the target is "one beast, monster or person" and the description cite the case "if cast upon oneself", does this mean that, if there ever was that rule that I am not even sure about, now it's gone and the caster can target these spell to himself in general?

5) page 124: Bless is a ritual prolonged spell: does this mean that need 2 hours to be cast and then last for a single scene? (same question for White Light, Calm, Link, Preserve, Puppet and Storm)

6) Many spells cast on an unnamed character cause his immediate ascension. Does this mean that the every PC must roll charm against 12 for him (immediately or later), or he maintain the same general demeanor of the mass of unnamed character until something happen that would cause a reroll? (I have the book open on the magic chapter to check the other questions, but I just thought about this one and I don't remember if there is already an answer somewhere else in the book)

7) Prolonged Spells cast as enchantment last for an entire venture: I see how this could solve the problem of having the same spell cast again and again scene after scene. But what happen after the venture end? The spent brawn is lost permanently? (seeing that the PG gets at most a single point of Brawn at the end of the venture, I don't think wizards that cast more more that a single point enchantment for venture will last very long without using Sacrifice or other dark magics...)

8) Page 134: the Brawn spent by the user to use a enchanted item without "de-enchanting" it is lost permanently, or it's the usual short-term loss for casting spells?

(sorry if some of these questions are answered after page 136, but I wanted to ask before forgetting them)

[Ron Edwards]

The British (original) version of The Office. The fourth episode of the first series (season). The motivational seminar. You are Gareth.

Your first question, both A and B, is very difficult to understand. I have to make a guess in order to see why you think the scene-length spell duration is a problem.

My guess is that you are confusing "scene" with "spotlight shining" or "turn to speak." Or perhaps, similarly, confusing "room" with "dungeon." A scene is a location with continuous action as far as the characters are concerned. The whole time the person is in the cavern you mention is a scene.

If that is not the issue, then please describe what you are imagining in play which would be a problem of some kind, or which places a limitation on the spell's utility.

2) "Ritual: no" means that the spell can be cast without a ritual, but it can be cast inside a ritual anyway, yes?

Yes, that's exactly what the rules say.

The rest of that question is a writing/editing criticism and I'm not going to deal with those.

3) page 122, "Balm", the spell restore 3 points, fixed, and at the end of the description, under "Variant/options", you write "A single additional die may be rolled by pumping 1 brawn, but no more". I assume that this means that by pumping 1 brawn (for a total of two brawn spent)  the caster restore 3+1d6 points to both Brawn and Quickness?

Yes. (Your assumption seems to me to be a literal reading of the text so I don't know why it's a question.)

4) I seem to recall (but maybe I am misremembering a rule from another game) that in the draft a target of "one person" did mean that caster could not cast the spell to himself.  But I see that that in "Balm" the target is "one beast, monster or person" and the description cite the case "if cast upon oneself", does this mean that, if there ever was that rule that I am not even sure about, now it's gone and the caster can target these spell to himself in general?

I don't want to talk about drafts. The spell as written is explicit.

5) page 124: Bless is a ritual prolonged spell: does this mean that need 2 hours to be cast and then last for a single scene? (same question for White Light, Calm, Link, Preserve, Puppet and Storm)

Yes. See my point above about the definition of a scene. A battle which takes a week in game-time is potentially a single scene, if it's played that way.

6) Many spells cast on an unnamed character cause his immediate ascension. Does this mean that the every PC must roll charm against 12 for him (immediately or later), or he maintain the same general demeanor of the mass of unnamed character until something happen that would cause a reroll?

The character is now a named character in full and all rules apply, especially the Charm roll, just as you describe, immediately or later. This point applies to all instances of ascension and is a crucial, even central mechanic of the game.

I have no idea why you think there could be an intermediate status between named and unnamed.

7) Prolonged Spells cast as enchantment last for an entire venture:

Wait. No, an enchantment is a permanent effect. I just looked at the relevant section and there's nothing about expiring at the end of a venture

8) Page 134: the Brawn spent by the user to use a enchanted item without "de-enchanting" it is lost permanently, or it's the usual short-term loss for casting spells?

It's the usual short-term loss for casting spells.

[Moreno R.]

Sigh. And then Ron asks why people with questions post them anywhere apart his forum... 

Why ask questions about things that are written in the book? Because they are not totally clear, because there are different possible interpretations of some passage, and because rpg designers in general are... let's say, not prone to see how their rules can be interpreted in different ways... 

Case in point: the ONLY, I repeat, the ONLY time in my entire post where I DIDN'T ask you clarifications about what you meant, thinking that you were using a word in the common, usual way used in rpg texts... 

My guess is that you are confusing "scene" with "spotlight shining" or "turn to speak." Or perhaps, similarly, confusing "room" with "dungeon." A scene is a location with continuous action as far as the characters are concerned. The whole time the person is in the cavern you mention is a scene.

OK. So you are talking about a scene from the character's point of view, in the explanation about a rule that's totally from the player's point of view (people don't divide their own life in scenes, not even PGs, and in the fictional world I doubt very much that they measure the spell duration in scenes...).

See why, as a rule, when you read rpg manuals, it's better to see possible different interpretations, and if there is any doubt, ask the designer? That simple misinterpretation, thinking that you meant "scene" in the way Primetime Adventures, Annalise, Dirty Secrets and a lot of other rpgs do, led to a lot of confusion reading the spell effects...

But, anyway, with that clarification, the spell description make much more sense, and most of my doubts are now resolved.

Most, but not all:

7) Prolonged Spells cast as enchantment last for an entire venture:

Wait. No, an enchantment is a permanent effect. I just looked at the relevant section and there's nothing about expiring at the end of a venture

Page 134, second column, at the bottom:

"A prolonged spell cast as an enchantment is defined in either of two ways:
[snip of the first way]
2: Cast onto a target per the description of the spell, but the effect lasts for the entire venture rather than merely a scene."

So I repeat my question:

7) Prolonged Spells cast as enchantment last for an entire venture: I see how this could solve the problem of having the same spell cast again and again scene after scene. But what happen after the venture end? The spent brawn is lost permanently? (seeing that the PG gets at most a single point of Brawn at the end of the venture, I don't think wizards that cast more more that a single point enchantment for venture will last very long without using Sacrifice or other dark magics...)

[Ron Edwards]

That's the only option for which enchantments are not permanent, the "weakest" kind. All other enchantments last forever unless ruined by magic or by breaking the object.

Brawn spent for any enchantment, even that one, is lost permanently.

You are right that this makes murderous black magic very enticing.

---
The confusion of "scene" with different aspects of turn, spotlight, or a single conflict is one of the many sins of the imitative Story Game design trends. It is certainly as egregious as the whole Stakes problem.

I submit that for the games you mentioned, when they say a player's turn will create and end a scene, that this is a particular design consideration and not a confusion. I do the same in Trollbabe and It Was a Mutual Decision, and I do the opposite in Sorcerer and especially in S/Lay w/Me. It's a perfectly good design dial but seems have become stuck at a particular setting in the last few years.