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Started by Jonathan Walton, July 29, 2004, 08:14:02 PM
QuoteThe Seven Deadly Sins are attributes, things that you collect quantities of, signifiers of your social standing, and the "patron" traits of individual groups of monsters. They are, in effect, the entire system of the game, because they're what the game is about. Take a look at these associations:Envy --> Cool --> Gothy Suicidal Social Outcasts --> VampiresGluttony --> Athletic --> Jock Party-Animal Booze-Hounds --> ZombiesGreed --> Rich --> Glittering Tommy Hilfiger Preps --> GoblinsLust --> Hot --> Hippie Pagan Vegan Lesbians --> FaeriesPride --> Smart --> Geeky Studious Valedictorians --> AliensSloth --> Sneaky --> Drop Out Stoner Shoe-Gazing Losers --> GhostsWrath --> Dangerous --> Punk/Metal Anarchist Rockers --> WerewolvesSo what do I need, system wise? Well, I need a concrete way for characters to gain Sin, which I'm currently missing
Quote from: TonyLBAnd in terms of "Adults don't perceive", have you considered full Post-modernism?
Quote from: Eero TuovinenAs I see it, there's only two endings for a Vespertine character. Either he becomes permanently a monster (the demon idea kicks ass, by the way), or he becomes an adult.
Quote from: PlotDevice...take a squiz at Sin/Zen.
Quote from: Tony LBIs Sin meant to be addictive to the characters, or to the players? And in terms of "Adults don't perceive", have you considered full Post-modernism?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen1.) ...how sin is gained: from other people.2.) Now, the game needs an uber-statistic in addition to the Sins...3.) ...the highest levels of Sin are probably only learnable from adults or monsters.4.) Either he becomes permanently a monster, or he becomes an adult.5.) Maturity is used when checking on becoming monster.6.) When a character is a monster it's up to his friends' Maturity to tame the monster...7.) Stakes mechanics.
Quote from: Tobias...is 'sneaky' really the best term to use together with sloth?
Quote from: TonyLBI think "Slacker" is a far more evocative and high-schoolish choice
Quote from: Christopher WeeksIf you adopt Eero's maturity and growing up idea, then I think the system for how sins are raised is different than if the point is to discover the monsterous nature of teenagers and fight to rescue your friends. Are there good guys in this game?
Quote from: MarhaultWould that be worth exploring, or are you more focused on the journey than the destination? I also love the idea of "hybrid" monsters.
Quote from: Jonathan WaltonWell, yes. That's what I was originally imagining. In Little Fears, you lose your Soul or you become a teenager. In Vespertine, you lose your Soul (by becoming a monster) or you become a 20-something, with a job and responsibilities. But the effects of your Sins might still haunt you.
Quote from: Jonathan WaltonLots of good stuff here, Eero.
Quote1.) Hell yes! I hadn't even thought of that, but it makes perfect sense. You start out innocent and then are eventually corrupted by your friends, enemies, family, and the people you happen to encounter.
Quote2.) Well, there are two uber-statistics from Little Fears that we could potentially port over: Soul and Fear.
Quote4.) Well, yes. That's what I was originally imagining. In Little Fears, you lose your Soul or you become a teenager. In Vespertine, you lose your Soul (by becoming a monster) or you become a 20-something, with a job and responsibilities. But the effects of your Sins might still haunt you.
Quote5.) Or Soul, but a good idea. I think you're right about needing a meta-trait. So you roll over Sin X to draw on its powers, but roll against Soul to not become a monster? How do you lose Soul? By becoming a monster? That might work, but it seems a little circular.
Quote6.) I think this idea has lots of potential. So you can try to turn into a monster in the presence of friends or teachers, but they can use their Soul or Maturity or whatever to keep you in check. Maybe certain adults in postitions of authority over the characters (such as teachers and parents and policemen) have a kind of permanently active Maturity that they project, which helps to keep people in line.
Quote7.) You know, your ideas here aren't bad either. I think I'll end up tweaking them quite a bit, but something like this might just work.
QuoteThe second one, however, is a really cool idea, and one that I've been wondering about today. Do we really need a seperate attribute though, or can your assortment of Sins serve as your way of constructing your identity and self-image? Identity is clearly different than Maturity, but they are related and they both help you rationalize away your Sins and live a relatively normal life. Good possibilities there.
QuoteSee, I don't know that there necessarily needs to be an endgame for Vespertine, but I might be wrong here. Maybe we could have the game wrap with a kind of counseling session, where the characters and players speculate about their futures without really setting anything in stone. After all, part of the fun of graduation is not knowing what happens next.
QuoteDoes having hybrid monsters overcomplicate things too much? I wonder about that. Would there also be tribes of succubi running wild in the woods with the werewolves and goblins? I think that make things a little messy. Then again, having characters transform into completely different types of monsters, based on their Sin expendatures, doesn't really make good aesthetic sense either. Maybe everyone picks a Sin to "major" in? But then they become splats and that's not so good. I don't want "werewolf characters" and "zombie characters" and the like. More thoughts?
Quote from: Jonathan WaltonPlayers initiate a Lesson by saying something like "I'm going to teach you/him/her/them a lesson." And then declare the Sin they want to use. I don't have a resolution system that I really like yet, but I have Vincent's "Dogs in the Vineyard" on my brain, so here's some initial thoughts. The "teacher" rolls dice equal to their Sin, behind their hand so no one else can see the results. Perhaps you could even roll "fake" dice of a different color, which wouldn't count but would make other people think you had more dice than you did (or maybe this is a GM trick, and all the players would have a general idea of what each other could do). The student rolls some dice too, but I'm not sure what these might be. Maybe equal to Self?
QuoteThen, the teacher begins by putting a single die forward, which the student can counter or accept. Countering requires a die of at least equal size (countering a 4 would require a 4/5/6). Acceptance means playing a die of lesser size. This process continues until either the teacher decides to stop (because they ran out of dice or just want to quit the lesson) or the student submits to the lesson or the student runs out of dice (teacher's victory) or the student escapes the encounter (not quite sure how this happens, yet) or one of the players indicates that play has gone beyond their comfort zone.
QuoteEach die put forward by the teacher is the equivilent of some attempt to teach the Sin. Wrath can be taught by beating the snot out of someone, for example, or encouraging the student to beat the snot out of someone else or commit some senseless act of violent destruction. Lust can be taught only through semi-positive sexual encounters (though intercourse doesn't have to happen, at least at the lower levels). The violence of rape, which will be handled very carefully in the text and in the game itself, almost always comes from Wrath and Gluttony, not Lust by itself (and there will be a long section about player consent and responsible handling of sex and violence). As such, there should be some way for characters to "up the ante" by switching from one Sin to another and getting more dice. For instance, you're teaching Lust by making out with someone and then say "you know, you're not as good in bed as Jeremy" and immediately switch over to Envy. Tactics like this would encourage players to be creative in their sinning.
QuoteAdditionally, maybe if the student bids Self dice to try to resist the assault, each die that counts as an "accept" die loses them a point of Self. And every point of Sin taught gives the teacher another point of Self, though they have to roll against the Sin to gain it (since they feel pretty dirty afterwards).
QuoteAnd maybe you can call on the supernatural powers of Sin safely, as long as you have more Self than Sin. So a guy with Self 6, Wrath 5 is okay. He's probably not a very nice person, but he's rationalized most of that away. Sin 6 is never possible to rationalize away. If your Sins are greater than or equal to your Self, you have to roll against Sin every time you use it, to avoid becoming a monster temporarily. And it should be really easy to lose more Self while you're a monster, unless your friends can get you under control.
QuoteSelf 0 is when you become a monster permanently, then. Having Sins of 6 makes this pretty easy to do, since you start becoming a monster more and more often, which is a sure way of losing Self fast.