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Author Topic: Banthas in the Vineyard, Redux  (Read 31417 times)
Vaxalon
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Posts: 1619


« on: February 13, 2005, 09:49:52 AM »

Rather than engage in thread necromancy, I started this new topic.  The old topic is at:

Banthas in the Vineyard

What I'd like to do here, is assemble all of the pieces necessary to handle a Jedi game using Dogs in the Vineyard.

As I see it, the following topics need to be handled:

    Town Creation[/list:u]
    Jedi Powers[/list:u]
    Character Creation[/list:u]

    The old topic handled town creation adequately, I think.

    There was a little bit of stuff on jedi powers (using a variant of the ceremony rules) but it's not really complete as far as I can see.  Once those are handled, character creation will have to encompass that as well.

    Now the ceremony rules, as they currently exist, talk about what the Dog DOES rather than what it accomplishes... which is fine.  I'm not sure that carries over to Jedi well, but let's try these elements of jedi powers as a foundation:

    Senses[/list:u]
    Matter[/list:u]
    Minds[/list:u]
    Energy[/list:u]

    Senses covers ESP of various sorts.  Matter covers the ability to toss things around, including one's own body, or Vader's throat pinch.  Minds covers the "jedi mind trick" and the ability to call out to others.  Energy covers Vader's blaster-dissipation trick and "force lightning".  I've listed them in increasing order of difficulty and effectiveness; the higher up the ladder you go, the more effective the technique is, but the more accomplished you have to be to make it work.

    The thing is... I don't know what to do with this foundation.  I'm kinda stuck.  Any suggestions?
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Clinton R. Nixon
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2005, 10:25:38 AM »

Let's not try to map ceremony to another representation of ceremony, but to what ceremony mechanically does. It is the only way to raise the Fallout your enemies take without becoming violent.

So, all that Force Lightning and stuff is out. Those are just traits that get used when you're fighting.

So, what are formalized methods a Jedi learns in order to non-violently affect others?

- Finding the Balance (Qui-Jon, Epi. 1, force shields vs. Darth Maul, meditation)
- Rolling Tongues (use of the Force to make one's voice calm and peace-inducing)
- The Force is my Shield (raise your hand in an open palm and draw the Force to it. This is less a physical shield and more a spiritual one.)
- Peer in the Universe of the Eye (look directly in another's eyes and live in their internal universe for a moment, altering their conciousness)

Three in All can stay the same. I'm sure we can think of some others to go here.

Understand that by its nature, "Banthas in the Vineyard" will fuse Jedi color with Old West missionary/Mormon culture. The idea of "Jedi" is so fluid (midicholorians? what the fuck are those? oh.) that this doesn't really matter.
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
Vaxalon
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Posts: 1619


« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2005, 11:01:58 AM »

I don't think the fusion is a problem, mainly because it's my opinion that Jedi culture and Mormon culture draw from much the same roots.  
   
Are we missing any of the elements of jedi ceremony?

What do you think of, "Your eyes can deceive you - reach out with your feelings" as an element?  The jedi closes his eyes in order to better connect with the Force.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Clinton R. Nixon
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2005, 11:46:29 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon

What do you think of, "Your eyes can deceive you - reach out with your feelings" as an element?  The jedi closes his eyes in order to better connect with the Force.


I like it. It's like an advanced version of Finding the Balance.

Seriously, I wonder if I Shall Not Be Bound (levitation) should be a ceremony. Things always get crazier when Jedi start bouncing around like the Gummi Bears.
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
Bankuei
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2005, 12:21:43 PM »

Calling on the dark side as Demonic Influence becomes way more tempting :)  I dig it.

Chris
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Vaxalon
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Posts: 1619


« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2005, 01:24:55 PM »

Just like Dogs takes a particular place and time in the history of the West, so Banthas should take a particular place and time in the history of the Star Wars galaxy.

At the end of Knights of the Old Republic, when the Star Forge is destroyed, thousands of dark jedi are killed... but in the middle of a vortex of darkside energy.  Their essences are charged by the destruction of the Star Forge, and flung across the galaxy.

These disembodied dark siders form the "demons" against which the Jedi will contend.  If they are able to worm themselves into a colony deeply enough, they can posess someone, and be reborn, in a way.

Only Jedi can be trusted to expunge the galaxy of this threat.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Doug Ruff
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Posts: 445


« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2005, 02:57:31 PM »

I've just read this and checked the previous thread, and I don't think this has been mentioned before, so:

Shouldn't Force Powers just be expressed as a relationship with the Force? You know, like "The Force is Strong with Me - 2D6"?

This is distinct from "I'm a Jedi" which just represents being a member of the organisation.

That way, IMHO, there's no need to come up with a list of specific Powers.

And if a Jedi starts using the Force out of Anger, then I would expect that, through Fallout, they would start to build a relationship with the Dark Side of the Force. Which means that they can call on the Dark Side to help them out (just like the existing Sorcery rules in Dogs.) And what that means to their soul is in their hands, to paraphrase Vincent.
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'Come and see the violence inherent in the System.'
Vaxalon
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Posts: 1619


« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2005, 04:09:32 PM »

Yes, that's all true, and doesn't apply to the question I'm asking.

Which is:

What ceremony-like techniques do Jedi use to connect with the Force?
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Doug Ruff
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Posts: 445


« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2005, 12:46:07 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon
Yes, that's all true, and doesn't apply to the question I'm asking.

Which is:

What ceremony-like techniques do Jedi use to connect with the Force?


Fair enough, I didn't address your question, so let me do so now. I don't think that your foundation (Senses, Matter, Minds and Energy) has anything to do with Ceremony.

Obi-Wan saying to Vader "strike me down and I will only grow stronger", that's Ceremony. Or warning someone that their Anger will consume them (or encouraging them to embrace it.)

Or how about this - closing your eyes.

I think the key here, IMHO, is not to concentrate on what a Jedi does with the Force, it's to think about what it is that makes the Force a religion rather than a set of assorted powers.

Hope that's a bit more useful to you.
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'Come and see the violence inherent in the System.'
Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2005, 06:14:36 AM »

Closing eyes, got that, upthread.

A character's relationship with emotion, both positive and negative, is probably something that sorely needs to be addressed.  I'm not sure it's an aspect of ceremony, though.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Doug Ruff
Member

Posts: 445


« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2005, 11:35:48 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon
Closing eyes, got that, upthread.


And that will teach me to post before my second cup of coffee in the morning...

As for the other stuff, warning someone that their anger will consume them, isn't just about calling out their emotional state - it's an admonishment, which puts it "safely" into Ceremony territory. In a way, it's also about following the "feel" of the movies.

So, for example:

Sensing the power of the Force - D4 ("The Force is strong with this one", "Your powers are fading, old man", "I sense a disturbance...")

Actively encouraging/discouraging strong emotion - D6 ("Your anger will not serve you here", "If you hate me, then strike me!")

Master and Apprentice - d8 (instead of Three In Authority)

Laying on hands can stay the same.

Is this more helpful?
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'Come and see the violence inherent in the System.'
lumpley
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2005, 11:45:38 AM »

How about "naming fear"? Your own or your opponent's.

-Vincent
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Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2005, 11:52:26 AM »

Interesting, can you give an example, either from the movies or hypothetical?  I *think* I know what you're talking about... that when you name a fear, you either empower it or disempower it, depending on your worldview...
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
lumpley
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2005, 12:26:14 PM »

Luke facing the illusory Vader in the cave. The Emperor telling Luke his friends are doomed. Stuff like that.

-Vincent
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Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 01:10:20 PM »

Let me see if I understand this...

On the light side, Luke told the Emperor,

Quote
"Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness.  I am a Jedi, like my father before me."


The fear he's naming, is the Emperor's fear that Luke won't fall.

Or how about the moment that is quite possibly the most dramatic in the whole trilogy, when Vader tells Luke, "I am your father."?  Until the moment that he says it, Luke can deny that it is true, but saying it empowers Luke's fear, and while Vader doesn't actually win that conflict, it does inflict significant fallout on Luke.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
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