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Started by Tom B, June 25, 2005, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: Mike HolmesSo, do you want your spellcasters to be able to:[list=1][*]Improvise? It's fun, to be sure, but using Affinities to improv is largely counter to the RM paradigm of fixed spells (stuff like Spell Mastery I'd model with other abilites that can be used to tamper with spells, not just allowing improv from some base concept).
QuoteLearn spells that are not in a group? In RM players are always buying one spell level from this list or that for their utility. Why not allow this to continue by using the Grimoire/Spell paradigm?
QuoteCast spells from texts? In RM characters can cast spells from scrolls (though these are expendable, it's still a meme), and spellbooks are implied.
QuoteCast spells without objects? RM actually supports Feats here somewhat in that, technically you don't have to have anything to cast most spells. But I personally think that requiring a wand or toadwort or whatever to cast a spell is fun.
QuoteMost importantly, I think that if you're going to use these complications at all, then it makes sense to create a separation between deistic magic and essence magic. It exists in both HQ and RM very parallel - channeling/essence.
QuoteSo hopefully you can see why I went with Wizardry. Note that for Warrior Mage sorts of characters, then you can use the Orderly rules (for "Paladins" I use theism).
QuoteI'd strongly suggest that you use the Apprentice/Adept keyword types as opposed to the Initiate/Devotee in terms not only of the abilities (that's obvious), but of the limitations. Adepts are surprisingly unlimited. Devotees specifically can use no other magic than their god's. The only limit on Adepts are the in-game restrictions of the particular order. So there's no reason that a truely secular order might not allow it's members to also initiate with some cult. Of course this would require the Adept to not be concentrated (which is an option, or do I have that incorrect?).
Quote from: Tom BAh. We have a basic misunderstanding. My fault. I've been using Rolemaster as an example because you seemed familiar with it. I've never used Rolemaster for this campaign, and am in no way trying to make it similar to Rolemaster.
QuoteI am encouraging spellcasters to be coherent in their spellcasting themes. If you want to create a 'Stealth' spell, then the spellcaster must be conversant in how stealth-type magic works. I am trying to avoid a horde of un-related spells being acquired haphazardly. If a spellcaster wants an individual spell unrelated to any of his Spheres, then he needs to find a magic item that will do it for him. Or open a proper Sphere. I -may- allow a spellcaster to learn a spell outside his Spheres, but at a substantially higher cost.
QuoteRituals can be cast from books. Spells...might be, with enough effort and a high risk of failure. Generally spells must be learned before they can be cast. Scrolls are the exception.
QuoteWe've used components in the past, but they've never been a popular requirement in our group.
QuoteThe way I've approached this for now is that the Paladin does only have access to magic appropriate to his deity. I have another character who is concentrated in Wizardry so he could have spells, but who is also a Champion for his Deity. Your point above is very interesting, because otherwise he was going to get no Deistic benefits. I'll look at Adepts and see if I can at least get him access to his deity's affinities...that would 'feel' more like what I was going for. Thanks for the tip.
Quote from: Mike HolmesAren't you the guy with the 15th to 20th level characters? That was a conversion to Rolemaster? Dude, I'm familiar with Darkurthe, and about 100 other RPGs. You didn't have to convert to Rolemaster. :-)
QuoteEr, um, see, that sounds like wizardry to me. The "themes" are bound up in what the Grimoires are about, and in what the order teaches overall. That is, it's precisely that you understand the "field" at X level that means that all of the spells in the Grimoire are cast at the same level.
QuoteYou're working on the D&D paradigm here. The idea that it's "free" to cast from a book somehow. All casting in HQ is "free." What I mean is that what makes more sense - being able to cast easily from a ready text, or having memorized that text, and casting from memory? Seems to me like the text would be an aid, not a hinderance.
QuoteThat'd be my genre expectation. What you seem to be doing is coming up with the expectation from some other RPG.
QuoteQuoteWe've used components in the past, but they've never been a popular requirement in our group.How did you use them? Were they "now we have to go get X" elements? The way to use talismans in HQ is that the characters always have them ready to go, unless you want to take the time as narrator to figure out why they wouldn't have them. For example, you have somebody steal them or take them away.
QuoteBut, in fact, the talisman requirement can be dropped from wizardry without issue. It's just a fun option.
QuoteBTW, you're using the term "ritual" in an unspecified manner. I don't think you mean it in the HQ "any magic ability that you prepare longer or with more resources to use." What does the term mean to you?
QuoteI think I'm confused here. Why would a paladin have "spells"? I mean, yeah, that's how it plays in other games, but in other games clerics have "spells" too. In HQ they would have feats, Clerics and Paladins both.
QuoteConsidering Darkurthe professions is a tad bit harder, but not much. I think you can still see the D&D MU, Cleric and Druid in there. As I recall the game has a sorta freeform magic system (is this why you're trying to have the improv magic?), but the sort of magic is pretty well related to the professions (which are then pretty race specific, aren't they?). Really hard to say for sure what's what coming from that system, and you probably could, therefore, get away with only one system to describe all of the magic.
QuoteBasically my general arguments are that all fantasy games have a core to them that HQ brings out better than any other system, and that one should mold their magic to fit the HQ system rather than trying to get the HQ system to fit the "mistakes" that the other system made in modeling magic.
Quote from: Tom BYeah...but I've never used "grimoires" in my setting. Apart from a few starting spells, mages devise their own spells. By having Spheres of study, they are also knowledgeable about those Spheres and tend to have skills complementing them. This has proven especially useful in HeroQuest since they can augment those skills with the Sphere knowledge they have.I'm not seeing a reason to have grimoires...what would I gain?
Quote from: Tim EllisFrom a "Rules" perspective there are a couple of important differences between "Grimoires and Spells" and "Affinities and Feats". You can improvise a feat from an affinity (at a penalty) but you can't augment a feat with it's parent affinity, (or another feat in the affinity). A Grimoire does not allow you to improvise spells, but does allow you to learn individual spells that are in the grimoire and use the "use grimoire" ability to augment them. You can also learn to use Grimoires and Spells without concentrating, wheras you can only learn or improve feats within an affinity if you are concentrated.
QuoteIf your mages tend to devise spells "on the fly" as it were, then using a "HQ THeism" based model probably works best, but if they spend time researching and devising spells in advance of actually going out and casting them then I'd be tempted to take another look at Adepts (the generic term for Wizards and Sorcerors) to see if they can be made to work the way you wish. By making Grimoires that match your "spheres" you allow them to be used to augment research and casting, and can make these as specific or general as you wish.
Quote from: Mike HolmesI'd largely agree with that. But I guess I'm just unsure of the limits at this point. Let's say that an initiate (unconcentrated, if you're using that), decides to become a master, too. Can he do that? If not, why not? Right now, there are no rules limitation on your initiate paladin also picking up a sphere or two. HQ is intended to be such that you can't take magic that your deity objects to (though they didn't put any hard limit in the rules about it). But if this magic is indeed "secular" and not related to a religion, then what would there be to object to? Some deities still might on some principle, but if the magic really doesn't represent competition, why would they prevent their people from learning it?
Quote from: Tom BWhat is the HeroQuest mechanism for preventing a non-religious wizard from gaining Theistic magic as well? I thought someone said they didn't have the same limitations on concentrating magic?