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Author Topic: Dueling  (Read 19750 times)
Lance D. Allen
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« on: May 03, 2002, 01:07:12 AM »

I just finished a duel between my character Tiberius, and Rattlehead's character Julianos. I lost due to a bad gamble.. The combatants and battle is posted below. After that are a few questions brought up by the battle.

Quote
Julianos Vainsteel..... think Iningo Montoya if he was well dressed and handsome....... oh.. and he wears foppish clothes of high freeman quality. A large hat with a massive feather protruding from it.... lots of purples and scarlets... with billowing white sleeves on his "shirt"... of average build.. muscular perhaps... slightly shorter than average, but not overly so..

ST: 4 AG: 7 TO: 6 EN: 4 HT: 3
WP: 3 WT: 3 MA: 4 SO: 5 PE: 4
RE: 5 AM: 5 KD: 5 KO: 7 MV: 7  
Proficiency: Case of Rapiers 8
CP: 13

Armor: Sleeveless Leather Jack: AV: 2 for areas III, IV, X, XII and XI

Weapons: 2 rapiers, and a poniard in his boot
Rapier: 1 handed, Medium length -- ATNs: Cut: 6 Thrust: 5 -- DTN 8 (5 vs light weaps) -- DMG: Cut: ST-3 Thrust: ST+3


Quote
Tiberius is a man of large stature. He stands at 6'7", and looks to weigh well in excess of 200 lbs. He looks about middle age, with salt-and-pepper black hair, and unflinching steel grey eyes. His features are typical of the Stahlnish.

ST: 5 AG: 6 TO: 5 EN: 4 HT: 4
WP: 4 WT: 4 MA: 4 SO: 2 PE: 5
RE: 5 AM: 5 KD: 5 KO: 7 MV: 7  
Proficiency: Cut and Thrust 8
CP: 13

Armor: Chain shirt with leather sleeves, iron bracers, and an arming glove.
AV: 4 to areas iii, iv, x, xi, xii;
AV: 2 to areas vii, xiv
AV: 3 to forearms(areas vii, xiv)
AV: 4 to left hand ( areas vii, xiv)

Weapons: A short sword, a stiletto in his belt, and the aforementioned arming glove.
Short sword: 1-hand, Short length, --ATNs: Cut 6, Thrust: 5 -- DTN: 7 -- Dmg: Cut: ST, Thrust ST


Note: Godbug is Julianos, and Johanus is Tiberius

    Godbug:  oh.. I"m in a defensive posture
     Godbug:  both rapiers drawn
     Johanus Morgan:  Offensive posture, sword drawn, arming glove worn.
     Johanus Morgan:  Count... now.
     Johanus Morgan:  R
     Godbug:  W
     Johanus Morgan:  Thrust, 7 dice.  
     Godbug:  will parry.. 7 dice.. leaving 10 in cp...
     Johanus Morgan:  Rolling dice.
     Godbug:  eh.. look at the stats for the rapier.. i think i get the DTN of 5... what do you think?
     Johanus Morgan:  Rolled. Ready?
     Godbug:  yeah
     Johanus Morgan:  2 successes
     Godbug:  hmmm... ok... so now I roll 7 d10 for DTN 5? right?
     Johanus Morgan:  Yes.
     Godbug:  4 successes
     Johanus Morgan:  Yeah.. you get init.
     Godbug:  ok.. just gonna dump the remaining 8 dice into a standard thrust to Chest (XII)
    Johanus Morgan:  Standard parry, 8 dice.
     Godbug:  rolling
     Godbug:  4 successes... ATN was 5 for thrust
     Johanus Morgan:  So you hit me.
     Godbug:  st == 4
     Godbug:  total is 4+3+1= 8
     Johanus Morgan:  armor 4 TO 5
     Godbug:  lemme roll 1d6
     Godbug:  d6 roll was a 5... chest
     Godbug:  which leaves?
     Johanus Morgan:  -1
     Johanus Morgan:  No damage.
     Johanus Morgan:  Call for init.
     Godbug:  count now
     Johanus Morgan:  R
     Godbug:  R
      Johanus Morgan:  Okay, contest of reflex, with opponent's ATN as the TN.
     Godbug:  ok.. declare attacks then
     Godbug:  another thrust... to zone XIII
     Godbug:  my ATN will be 5 I'll use 8 dice for attack... leaving 5 cp
      Johanus Morgan:  Simultaneous Block and Strike, 6 for attack, 7 for defense, attack will be a thrust to X, defense will be a parry with the arming glove.
     Godbug:  ok... so you're ATN is 6
     Johanus Morgan:  yes.
     Johanus Morgan:  And yours?
     Godbug:  ATN 5
     Johanus Morgan:  Reflex first, then.
     Godbug:  5d10 tn 6
     Godbug:  for me that is
     Johanus Morgan:  5d10 TN 5
     Johanus Morgan:  for me.
     Johanus Morgan:  Rolling.
     Godbug:  4
     Johanus Morgan:  4 successes.
     Johanus Morgan:  I suppose we just have them land simultaneously.
     Godbug:  k
     Godbug:  shall I?
     Johanus Morgan:  I'll make my defense roll first, as you make your attack.
     Godbug:  rolling.. 8d10 tn 5
     Godbug:  5
     Johanus Morgan:  rolling...
     Johanus Morgan:  7d10, tn 6
     Johanus Morgan:  5.
     Johanus Morgan:  No damage is dealt, but the agressor takes initiative.
     Godbug:  ok.. there must be a margin of success for the attack to get through the parry (or what have you)
     Godbug:  right?
     Johanus Morgan:  Right.
    Johanus Morgan:  6d10 vs TN 6
     Johanus Morgan:  3 successes.
     Johanus Morgan:  ST(5)+3(success)=8 damage.
     Godbug:  ok.. my TO is 6 and we need to see if that's covered by armor
     Johanus Morgan:  X? You said it would be.
     Godbug:  ok... the whole of X is covered then?
     Johanus Morgan:  I forgot.. Lemme roll.
     Johanus Morgan:  Lower abdomen.
     Johanus Morgan:  Covered, I'd say.
     Godbug:  so 6(TO)+2(AV) = 8
     Johanus Morgan:  0 damage.
     Godbug:  ok.. so that's the end of rnd 2?
     Godbug:  oh.. wait..
     Godbug:  I still have dice left...  
     Godbug:  erm.. what happens now..?
     Johanus Morgan:  Attack.
     Johanus Morgan:  I risked everything on that.
     Godbug:  thrust to face again... I suppose
     Johanus Morgan:  okay, roll
     Godbug:  erm... i have 5 dice left.. 5d10 ATN 5
     Johanus Morgan:  ::cringes::
      Johanus Morgan:  Yeah.. total it up?
     Godbug:  only 3 successes...
     Godbug:  so total was 10 damage before TO
     Johanus Morgan:  TO 5, which means total damage 5..
      Godbug:  collar and throat.. rolled a 1
     Johanus Morgan:  yeah, nice. I just wanted to see how I died. [/list:u]

    Question#1: In the second round, Tiberius successfully defended and struck. Would he gain initiative? And if so, what would be the result of him having no more dice? The round ends, or initiative defaulting to Julianos, who still had dice?

    Question#2: Does a leather jack cover zone X? I made the call, for that battle, that it covered the lower abdomen, but not the groin or hip. Does this sound alright?

    Question#3: I believe there was more to it, but could find nothing. If, on a double attack, the reflex contest is a tie, what determines the order of strikes?

    Question#4: Was my use of the arming glove to parry by grabbing the blade correct?

    Question#5: Is 5 the correct DTN for a Rapier -vs- a short sword? We assumed so, because Tiberius was using a Cut and Thrust style, and it is a lighter weapon.

    That's all we could think of so far, but I'm posting this publicly so Brandon can ask his own questions in addition to mine.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
Rattlehead
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2002, 01:19:43 AM »

I think he's pretty much covered all the questions we ran into during this "test run", but I would like to explain our initiative system. Since we were using Instant Messages, we couldn't very well throw dice on the table. What we did was one of us would send a message to the effect of "begin count" and we would count off roughly 5 seconds (while typing an R or W for the die color) and then send the result. That way we more or less simultaneously "threw our initiative dice".

We also had a lot of fun with this duel as well! :-)

Brandon
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Grooby!
Jaif
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Posts: 327


« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2002, 03:10:18 AM »

In the DOS program they have on-site, initiative defaults to the other party when one party runs out of dice.

-Jeff
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Rattlehead
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2002, 10:26:19 AM »

Yeah, we used the combat program as an example sometimes. For example, to decide if we were to let the leather jack cover the groin area too. But what we're looking for is for someone (hopefully Jake, if he has a moment) to look it over and say "Yes, you interpreted the rules correctly" or "No, it's actually done THIS way". I guess we're just being "rules-paranoid", but I don't really want to answer rules questions based on what it seems the combat program is doing.

Thanks,

Brandon
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Grooby!
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2002, 10:42:29 AM »

Quote from: Wolfen

Question#1: In the second round, Tiberius successfully defended and struck. Would he gain initiative? And if so, what would be the result of him having no more dice? The round ends, or initiative defaulting to Julianos, who still had dice?

Question#2: Does a leather jack cover zone X? I made the call, for that battle, that it covered the lower abdomen, but not the groin or hip. Does this sound alright?

Question#3: I believe there was more to it, but could find nothing. If, on a double attack, the reflex contest is a tie, what determines the order of strikes?

Question#4: Was my use of the arming glove to parry by grabbing the blade correct?

Question#5: Is 5 the correct DTN for a Rapier -vs- a short sword? We assumed so, because Tiberius was using a Cut and Thrust style, and it is a lighter weapon.


1) If you successfully parry then you take initiative and may attack if you're out of dice then your opponent can attack.

2) I say it does. It's really up to the GM's sense of style of historical accuracy, but the whole torso is what I would expect a Jack to cover.

3) If the reflex contest is a tie, then you consted WP. If that's a tie, then you both hit at the same time. Note that reflex is only rolled when both sides attack at the same time (throw red). See the init. section in the book.

4) He was attacking with a rapier, right? If so, then yes.

5) It's 5 if the attack is a thrust, but 8 if it's a swing, although it would be reasonable to rule that short swords are light enough to be successfully dealt with by a rapier even when swung, making the TN 5...it's a juedgement call, really.
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Lance D. Allen
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2002, 02:20:50 PM »

1. Sorry, forgot to mention that my parry was an exact tie, where it says that initiative goes to the attacker. But it's a moot point, because you said that he gets to attack because he had dice, and I didn't. Thanks.

2. Thank you.

3. Thank you, we did it correctly, then.

4. So what if he were attacking with something else? The arming glove is designed to grab blades, so I should be able to grab any thrust, shouldn't I? Also, can an arming glove be used to parry a cut? I could see it being possible in reality, though difficult. What would your call be?

5. Thank you.

Thanks so much for the answers. It was, personally, a very enjoyable duel, and I will try to a couple more whilst waiting for my opportunity to actually play.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2002, 07:36:54 PM »

Quote from: Wolfen
So what if he were attacking with something else? The arming glove is designed to grab blades, so I should be able to grab any thrust, shouldn't I? Also, can an arming glove be used to parry a cut? I could see it being possible in reality, though difficult. What would your call be?


Any thrust can be dealt with with an arming glove (it's got a chain palm, generally). In truth, any thrust can be dealt with without an arming glove, though there is some minor risk and guaranteed discomfort if the blade is especially sharp (a rare thing, but who knows).

It is possible--though very difficult--to parry a cut with an arming glove (or a bare hand for the really brave). It's done IRL by smacking the flat of the incoming blade as it descends (I've never seen it done against a side-to-side or upward cut...only downward and downward diagonals). It could probably be handled with a CP cost (2 dice?) to "activate" such a maneuver. If the parry is successful, then you get initiative. If it fails, then damage is applied to the hand or lower arm (minus the protection of the glove, which is pretty minimal...I'd say about 3 points tops). On a fumble the sword hits its intended target. There may be better ways to handle it, and we'll experiement 'till we get something, which will probably go into the Flower. I'd love to do an expanded C&T section, with more on cloaks and lanterns...C&T with arming glove is my _favorite_, though poinard or cloak are fun.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Rattlehead
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2002, 10:05:51 PM »

Jake, thank you VERY much for your help. I would like some clarification on point five (rapier DTN) though, if you will. To make it quick and easy, you can just reply with a yes or no. :-)

Am I correct in this reading of the way this is handled: The rapier has a DTN of 5 against ALL thrust attacks, regardless of weapon size. Against big weapons, it's DTN is 8 for cut (swing) attacks and 5 against thrusts. Against small weapons it's DTN is 5 for all attacks (cut or thrust).

Is that right?

Thanks,
    Brandon

PS: I normally wouldn't split hairs over little things, but I like rapiers and use them a lot with my characters.
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Grooby!
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2002, 09:45:05 AM »

That's how I handle it.
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Rattlehead
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2002, 11:42:32 AM »

Thank you again, Jake! I'll leave you alone for a bit now...  :-)

Brandon
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Grooby!
Lyrax
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Posts: 268


« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2002, 09:10:09 AM »

Hey Jake, they used their opponent's ATN as a TN for the reflex roll.  I thought it was to be done with one's own ATN as a TN.  I know that this isn't the most important part, but it could do with some clarification.
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Lance Meibos
Insanity takes it's toll.  Please have exact change ready.

Get him quick!  He's still got 42 hit points left!
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2002, 09:25:00 AM »

Quote from: Lyrax
Hey Jake, they used their opponent's ATN as a TN for the reflex roll.  I thought it was to be done with one's own ATN as a TN.  I know that this isn't the most important part, but it could do with some clarification.


Hi Lance. Where's that "Riddle of Gold" book, eh? ;)

The rules on page 74 are pretty clear that it's the "combattant's" ATN, not the "Opponenent's ATN." I over looked that in the description of the above duel, but in all honesty I wasn't looking for such detail. On the "common sense" side of things, why would it be easier to hit your opponent first if he had a faster weapon (faster here means low ATN)? I hate to say it, but "duh..." It's an oversight, I understand, but you all really don't need a "ruling from Jake" on this one...

Sorry if that sounded kinda sour...I'm feeling grouchy today. On the upside, the Spider Man movie was pretty good.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Lance D. Allen
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2002, 05:29:18 PM »

::frowns, re-reads the last two posts a couple times... runs to grab his RoS book, turns to the page, looks... then sighs:: Gah. Not that I doubted you Jake, but I had to see where I obviously mis-read. So did Brandon too, it seems, though I was generally the quicker finding things, so he may not have even found the page to read the rule. Yeah, it was an oversight, but I would likely have continued in that vein if Lyrax hadn't pointed it out.
Thanks.

BTW, it's going to get slightly confusing with 2 Lances in here, but I suppose I'll cope.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
Jaif
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2002, 06:02:50 PM »

FWIW, I misread it the same way at first as well, but when I taught a friend it sounded wrong, so I looked it up and realized my error. Anyway, maybe a slight change in wording is in order.

-Jeff
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Rattlehead
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2002, 08:50:37 PM »

Oh yeah, I meant to mention that to you, Lance, when we were chatting last night. I saw that we had done it wrong when I was running some combats on Saturday. During the actual duel, I had looked that up, but I missed it too... It seems to be worded clearly, so I don't know why it's so easy to screw up.... LOL

Brandon
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Grooby!
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