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Author Topic: [Fallen] Power 19  (Read 4966 times)
northerain
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« on: May 10, 2007, 03:21:47 PM »

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Daniel Davis
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 04:09:34 PM »

My first reaction is that I am attracted by the setting and themes of the game as well as what I assume is the metagame explanation for the blending of two minds into a distinct third being that is nevertheless bound by chains of memory to the two component-but-lost minds.

My second reaction is to this:

7.) How are behaviours and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
There are no rewards for style of play or behaviour. You can either be a good guy that goes around saving people, or a bad guy killing with little evidence or reason.

I don't know that it's possible for a game not to reward certain behaviors or patterns of behavior. I can't imagine how this would work. From the rest of your post, it seems to me that one of the places of narrative riches in this setting is the inner conflict of the protagonists: I'm fighting crime and evil, and I don't want to "catch it," so to speak. I think a temptation mechanic is appropriate for something like this - but only if this tension is an important one to you.

Now, if you value a sort of engine-unity in your design and if you want to incorporate something like "If you only knew the power of the Dark Side" temptations in your game as an important mechanic, I'd figure out the temptation mechanic first and then deduce the rest of the mechanics from that. This might be a way to keep your temptation mechanic from feeling like it's "tacked on," since this kind of temptation won't constitute the majority of fortune determinations that will occur.

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En-halu, agaim.
northerain
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 08:13:13 PM »


I don't know that it's possible for a game not to reward certain behaviors or patterns of behavior. I can't imagine how this would work. From the rest of your post, it seems to me that one of the places of narrative riches in this setting is the inner conflict of the protagonists: I'm fighting crime and evil, and I don't want to "catch it," so to speak. I think a temptation mechanic is appropriate for something like this - but only if this tension is an important one to you.

Now, if you value a sort of engine-unity in your design and if you want to incorporate something like "If you only knew the power of the Dark Side" temptations in your game as an important mechanic, I'd figure out the temptation mechanic first and then deduce the rest of the mechanics from that. This might be a way to keep your temptation mechanic from feeling like it's "tacked on," since this kind of temptation won't constitute the majority of fortune determinations that will occur.



Well actually, I don't want the players to feel constrained by some kind of humanity gauge. The point beeing, if you want to play a really horrible person, you could with no repercussions on your character(ala Vampire: TM's humanity). I said earlier that it can be hard to tell who the good guys are when you just murder someone in cold blood for the greater good, but my point wasn't that the characters are the good guys forced to do bad things. My point was, this is the shallow surface. Yeah the angels are the good guys come to save the world, but is that image really that honest? Maybe this doesn't translate so well into an rpg.
To be honest, I feel a bit unsure about the question in general. How do other games reward styles of play?
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Mikael
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 06:03:34 AM »

Ok, what you have right now is a concept, and as such Power 19 is not as much something you need to "fill in", but things you should perhaps privately think about. Also, you say you do not have a system yet, while talking about attributes, skills and cool powerz. Why lock yourself to that approach, if you seriously have not considered the system yet?

If you want to take your concept for a spin, I suggest taking something like the FATE system, since I have heard a lot of good things about the way aspects work in FATE. Graft some concept-specific color on top of FATE, and play it out, see how it feels.

That said, it seems that your concept is intriguing, but you are selling it short in terms of the kinds of play it could produce. Here are some thoughts:

If you just ask the players to generate a character who is the result of a melding between an angel and a mortal, you move a potentially interesting part of play from actual play to "pre-play", i.e. you ask the players to just describe something that they could actually experience, through play. How about you first create an angel, and play out two scenes: a) one that explains how that particular angel gets fed up with the celestial indifference, and decides personal sacrifice is called for, and b) another where the angel does whatever needs to be done to be cast down to earth. These scenes should be sufficient to shed some light on the personality of the angel. Then you create a mortal, and play out a scene that illustrates why that particular angel would choose this particular mortal as the host: Is the mortal most deserving and righteous? Just dispensable, a morally bankrupt person that the world can live without? Most cut from the rest of the world, so that no one notices the change in his or her behavior? Maybe the angel takes the utilitarian approach, and selects a host with the most earthly resources, to make the fight easier? This scene or scenes would also be crucial to actively show in play the relationships and environment of the mortal character.

Then you do the melding of the two entities. You could have a set number of traits or slots to fill in in the resulting character, and then you must pick and choose from the angel's and mortal's traits. You can't have them all, you have to have some from both, etc.

I think a system for this concept should rely heavily on relationships, perhaps not for combat, but for everything else, and all the demons the fallen encounter would somehow be tied to those relationships, perhaps through possession, and the relationships would constantly be risked.

Or something.
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northerain
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 06:34:25 AM »

Hi Mikael, I'll try and address the points you made.
Ok, what you have right now is a concept, and as such Power 19 is not as much something you need to "fill in", but things you should perhaps privately think about. Also, you say you do not have a system yet, while talking about attributes, skills and cool powerz. Why lock yourself to that approach, if you seriously have not considered the system yet?

Alright well I lied a bit. I know how I want the system to work more or less, but I don't really know the actual mechanics. The ''cool powerz'' is basically the supernatural part of the game, which I carried over from my old project, ''Obscure''. As such, I'm really set on using that.
If you want to take your concept for a spin, I suggest taking something like the FATE system, since I have heard a lot of good things about the way aspects work in FATE. Graft some concept-specific color on top of FATE, and play it out, see how it feels.
I'm not really sold on FATE. I have to admit I'm a bit traditional(hell, even DitV wasn't that easy for me to grasp, although I love that game to death)

That said, it seems that your concept is intriguing, but you are selling it short in terms of the kinds of play it could produce. Here are some thoughts:

If you just ask the players to generate a character who is the result of a melding between an angel and a mortal, you move a potentially interesting part of play from actual play to "pre-play", i.e. you ask the players to just describe something that they could actually experience, through play. How about you first create an angel, and play out two scenes: a) one that explains how that particular angel gets fed up with the celestial indifference, and decides personal sacrifice is called for, and b) another where the angel does whatever needs to be done to be cast down to earth. These scenes should be sufficient to shed some light on the personality of the angel. Then you create a mortal, and play out a scene that illustrates why that particular angel would choose this particular mortal as the host: Is the mortal most deserving and righteous? Just dispensable, a morally bankrupt person that the world can live without? Most cut from the rest of the world, so that no one notices the change in his or her behavior? Maybe the angel takes the utilitarian approach, and selects a host with the most earthly resources, to make the fight easier? This scene or scenes would also be crucial to actively show in play the relationships and environment of the mortal character.

I planned on having each player talk about/roleplay what led to his decision to leave heaven, how he did it and why. And then ''choosing'' a host by roleplaying the mortal beeing in a traumatic situation or having some kind of epiphany that made it possible for the angel to enter his body. So I guess I kinda thought about this, although you made it clearer that it deserves a bit more attention. So thanks for that!

Then you do the melding of the two entities. You could have a set number of traits or slots to fill in in the resulting character, and then you must pick and choose from the angel's and mortal's traits. You can't have them all, you have to have some from both, etc.

I think a system for this concept should rely heavily on relationships, perhaps not for combat, but for everything else, and all the demons the fallen encounter would somehow be tied to those relationships, perhaps through possession, and the relationships would constantly be risked.
I'm not really sure I'd like that. It sounds interesting but I think it'll be a bit complicated to ask players to create two characters and then discard some of their traits. I can't see it working, although I like the idea.


Relationships will be a big part of the game. Mostly in the way that the mortal part of the character will have ties to his mortal life. After all, family, kids, heirlooms or whatever are some of the most important things in a person's life right? I know I'm going to have a list of ''ties'' for each character, but I don't know what kind of mechanics I'm going to use for it and/or what kind of effect it will have on character stats/powers.

Thanks for feedback. I hope the quote tags work otherwise this will be unreadable.
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Mike Sugarbaker
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 02:16:48 PM »

If you want to take your concept for a spin, I suggest taking something like the FATE system, since I have heard a lot of good things about the way aspects work in FATE. Graft some concept-specific color on top of FATE, and play it out, see how it feels.
I'm not really sold on FATE. I have to admit I'm a bit traditional(hell, even DitV wasn't that easy for me to grasp, although I love that game to death)

Well, of course you're not sold on FATE: it's a system, and you hate those! :-)

Seriously, the point here is, you're at a point with this design where you're gonna get lots of mileage out of just grabbing any system that you can stand, trying to run a game with the color and thematic elements you're interested in, and paying close, careful attention to where the system either fails to help you enough, or works against you. FATE has a lot of fans in this neck of the woods, for good reason IMO, but you could use anything. Even DitV!
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northerain
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 02:21:59 PM »

I like FATE, the ''problem'' is I don't think it will do what I want it to do. It's personal preference, it's highly probably my game is perfect for FATE, but in the end, you have to make a game that first of all, you'd like to play right?
I did want to ask something though. If I'm planning to actually publish my game, isn't it a faux pas to use a system basically stolen from another rpg?
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Mike Sugarbaker
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 02:42:52 PM »

I did want to ask something though. If I'm planning to actually publish my game, isn't it a faux pas to use a system basically stolen from another rpg?

FATE 3.0 is available under the Open Gaming License, in the form of the Spirit of the Century SRD. So no, not in this case. You'd have to abide by the terms of the license, but they're reasonable.
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northerain
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 02:45:07 PM »

Yeah I know about Fate(although I didn't know Fate v3 was available). But you mentioned DitV, thus my question.
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Mike Sugarbaker
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 12:19:37 PM »

If you published a game with the DitV system in it, whole cloth? Yeah, "faux pas" is a decent word for that. But you aren't to publishing yet. You aren't even near it.

If you just jump in and play in this world you're setting forth, with any system, I think you'll find that you learn a tremendous amount about the specific systemic needs of this setting. In short, any system you jump in with now is either gonna get thrown out and replaced with something new, or change to the point where it's unrecognizable.
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northerain
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2007, 12:46:59 PM »

You're right about that. This is my first game so I'm not really that experienced. My main problem at the moment is that I'm stuck without a gaming group to playtest or even discuss. Sometime in July I'll be seeing my friends and I expect to make alot of progress then.
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