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Author Topic: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers  (Read 10789 times)
Mokkurkalfe
Member

Posts: 340


« on: September 15, 2002, 04:19:24 AM »

I'm planning to run an X-COMish (a computer game) game with tRoS rules. The lethal feel of tRoS should fit well here.
For guns I'll just use the missile weapon system, but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).
I also want to simulate recoil somehow, especially since there might be recoilless laser weapons.

Another topic is armor. A weapons ability to penetrate shouldn't be decided by the MoS. Doesn't make sense with firearms. Perhaps a Penetration value that lowers when the ATN for range rises?
Or am I totally off track?

Right now the weapon damage ratings are:

Pistols and SMG's                          4-5p
rifle calibres                                 6-8p
Machinegun                                  7-8p
Sniper rifles and BIG hunting rifles 9p
Hand-held cannon                         10p
Laser weapons                             5-10p
Plasma weapons(the aliens' weapons)                           6-12c

Laser and plasma weapons will have very little BL(very hot) and lasers will have very little shock.
Plasma gets cutting damage cuz' that way plasma can decapitate and disembowel.
Cannons and other explosives will have lots o' chock and BL bonuses

Thoughts? Advice? Anything?
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Joakim (with a k!) Israelsson
Shadeling
Member

Posts: 314


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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2002, 04:23:05 AM »

I think a little from column A) a little from B) =) Actually MoS should help... kinda like getting that shot in the right place... But have flat Damage ratings for the gun or ammunition type, ya know. So add your MoS to Damage, like existing rules. But you could also have rules like certain weapons do well against certain armors... Anyway, just my thoughts and rants.
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Sneaky Git
Member

Posts: 169


« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2002, 06:06:35 AM »

Quote from: Mokkurkalfe
but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).

Are you talking about full automatic fire?  Or controlled bursts (3-5 rounds for each pull of the trigger)?  The reason that I ask is that full auto is truly only good for two things: making the bad guys keep their heads down and emptying your magazine.  As a result, nearly all modern assault rifles and SMGs have a selector switch allowing them to be set to at different rates of fire.  The result is that recoil, honestly, doesn't play that much of a role.  Sure, it's there, but soldiers are trained to account for it.. and a 3-round burst (of M-16A2 fame) does not generate enough energy to cause problems for the shooter.

As a result, I'd decrease the ATN of a weapon making use of short, controlled bursts, but not touch the resulting damage.  Sure, you're putting more shells downrange, but not necessarily guaranteeing a greater number of good hits.  Aiming, however, should still be allowed(single shots are even better.. one aimed shot may not kill, but it typically incapacitates).

As for full auto.. a flat ATN is probably more appropriate.  And one that is actually higher than single shot or controlled burst.

Hmm...  Let me think on this some more.
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Molon labe.
"Come and get them."

- Leonidas of Sparta, in response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms.
Mokkurkalfe
Member

Posts: 340


« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2002, 07:10:19 AM »

Shadeling:
I will have flat damage ratings for different weapons(well, calibres actually), that table is just a little too grainy to show.
MoS should help to certain degree, yes. It's just that some weapons just won't penetrate certain armor. Impossible.

Sneaky Git:
I'm talking about both full automatic fire and bursts.
Perhaps I'll just give weapons with higher recoil(e.g. hand-held cannon) a higher ATN, unless on a tripod.
The flat ATN for full automatic is a good idea.
Actually, full auto is also useful when you bump into the armed and armoured equivalent of a gol captain.
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Joakim (with a k!) Israelsson
Thirsty Viking
Member

Posts: 238


« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2002, 09:48:29 PM »

Quote from: Mokkurkalfe
I'm planning to run an X-COMish (a computer game) game with tRoS rules. The lethal feel of tRoS should fit well here.
For guns I'll just use the missile weapon system, but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).
I also want to simulate recoil somehow, especially since there might be recoilless laser weapons.

Another topic is armor. A weapons ability to penetrate shouldn't be decided by the MoS. Doesn't make sense with firearms. Perhaps a Penetration value that lowers when the ATN for range rises?
Or am I totally off track?

Right now the weapon damage ratings are:

Pistols and SMG's                          4-5p
rifle calibres                                 6-8p
Machinegun                                  7-8p
Sniper rifles and BIG hunting rifles 9p
Hand-held cannon                         10p
Laser weapons                             5-10p
Plasma weapons(the aliens' weapons)                           6-12c

Laser and plasma weapons will have very little BL(very hot) and lasers will have very little shock.
Plasma gets cutting damage cuz' that way plasma can decapitate and disembowel.
Cannons and other explosives will have lots o' chock and BL bonuses

Thoughts? Advice? Anything?


Thoughts,  First you are asking for a section as large as our current combat section to address these issues. (at least)  this is why I think Black Powder was left out of TRoS.

Range modifiers use small increments for pistols and shotguns.  large ones for rifles,
Scoped rifles apply a -TN modifier based on the scope.  
Rifles have differing range increments.  as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.
Ignore the Margin of succes when using burst fireor automatic fire(see below for thier efffects)).

Unless stated other wise with MoS modifiers,  all attacks are aimed at body.  Attacks to Head or extremities should be at +TN and - MP.

Shot guns have lowest starting target number.

Semi-automatic weapons can fired each roung at base MP refresh rate - recoil modifier

Burst mode will have higher recoil than non burst, role for each bullet with penalties on 2nd and 3rd rolls,  or set in creasing threshholds for the hit...  ex.  three round burst, 1 success = 1 hit ... 3 success = 2 hits ... 6 success = 3 hits

Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil.  do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing.  Recoiless weapons refresh normally.   Many of the best sniper weapons have to be reloaded for a round before firing.

In general the more damage a bullet does when it hits, the more recoile.

Bullet proof vests convert damage to blunt as well as reducing level.

different Ammo loads modify the type of damage done by a Weapon, and it's recoil

Bulets are generally blunt but the piercing damage is the best similation Blunt bulets are stopped by a Bullet proof vest.

A BP Vest will nullify 2/3 damage level of a bullet and all damage will be bruising.   Unless the bullet is AP in which case they are treated to maintain shape and penatrate an BP vest....  These do less damage when they hit unless the strike a vital organ.  

some bullets are designed to shatter  on impact doing multiple wounds at a lower damage level than the standard round. Or to tumble doing greator pain and shock and BL but at a lower DL

PLASMA weapons are very high recoil.  
Rifles don't necessarily do more damage than a pistol  they are more accurate at range though.

An M16 does LESS damage than most pistols...  It's a .22 caliber rifle designed to be light weight, low recoil, and accurate.  OTOH it requires a  relatively high level of field maintenance.   An AK47 does more damage is heavier and has more recoil, OTOH it is almost peasant proof and  will generally continue to function correctly as long as the muzzle isn't plugged.  The AK47 can use the same round as 7.62 mm machine gun as opposed to 4.63 mm  M16  IIRC

Machine guns on full AUTO are Very accurate if mounted on a stationary  tripod/bipod.  A skilled user can hit multiple targets multiple times a round if they are close together by walking his fire across them...  this does use a lot of ammo, not effective if weapon is used without the bipod/tripod.   This is why the troops were massacred so often in charges in WW1 trench warfare.   Roll his Full MP Each round he fires in this situation TN 5...  this is how many bullets he hits with if targets are close together.  (for this purpose hold your hand stright out in front of you shoulder wide..  use this to approximate the arc of fire each rd) If weapon is vehicle mounted and vehicle is moving raise the TN.   If he ambushes units Standing in formation use MP*2 dice on the first round to determin how many were hit.

use burst rules at TN+2 to spray automatic fire at three tagets from a fully automatic hand held weapon.

The actuall charts and tables for al this should keep you quite busy....  my suggestion..  use about 5 weapons total to start with,  add 1-2 weapons a week. As players advocate for thier favorite, or weapons are captured from the aliens,

Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire...  shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at.  As for how to implemnt all this stuf ....

Good luck.
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John Doerter   Nashville TN
Sneaky Git
Member

Posts: 169


« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2002, 04:39:09 AM »

My apologies for the semi-rant nature of what follows..

Quote from: Thirsty Viking

Rifles have differing range increments.  as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.

That TN is overly harsh for a trained rifleman.  Max effective range for the M16A2 against point targets is 550 meters, and 800 meters for area targets.

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil.  do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing.  Recoiless weapons refresh normally..

This could work.  It's a good way to simulate recoil.. so long as the shooter fires more than once.

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Bullet proof vests convert damage to blunt as well as reducing level.

Exactly.  And the damage is certainly greater the closer you get.. Also, don't forget that so-called "bullet-proof" vests aren't.  They are only designed to stop low velocity projectiles.. or high velocity rounds at range.

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
An M16 does LESS damage than most pistols...  It's a .22 caliber rifle designed to be light weight, low recoil, and accurate.  OTOH it requires a  relatively high level of field maintenance.   An AK47 does more damage is heavier and has more recoil, OTOH it is almost peasant proof and  will generally continue to function correctly as long as the muzzle isn't plugged.  The AK47 can use the same round as 7.62 mm machine gun as opposed to 4.63 mm  M16.

This info is not only dated, but in some cases, I'm sorry to say, plain wrong.  True, the original M16 required a ton of maintenance..  but this, however, is a Vietnam-era assault rifle.  It required maintenance because the smokeless powder the US Army purchased was a nasty mess that resulted in misfires and "jams" unless one was religious about keeping their weapon clean.  It is a common misconception that the humid climate and difficult terrain caused this.. but it is a misconception.  Once the US Army made a couple of minor changes, and switched powder, the M16's notorious jamming difficulties ceased. The M16A2, an evolution of the M16 and M16A1, is one of the most reliable assault rifles in the world.

True, the actual projectile fired by the M16A2 is small (basically a .223)(it is a 5.56mm standard NATO round.. and not 4.63mm) when compared to the standard for most pistols, 9mm, but to make claims that it is therefore less powerful than a pistol round is stunningly wrong.  The M16A2 has a muzzle velocity (the speed at which the round exits the weapon) of roughly 850 meters/second.  By comparison, a standard 9mm pistol (M9)
has a muzzle velocity of only 365 m/s.  Muzzle velocity is the primary determinant when one is looking at stopping power (Here's another "for example"... a .38 and a .357.  Which is bigger?  The .38.  Which is more powerful?  The .357.  Why?  Becuase of the amount of powder propelling the round out of the chamber.).  The AK47, BTW, has a muzzle velocity of 700m/s.

Remember, the goal is to kill the enemy.  If a pistol round was better at it, frontline combat troops would all be carrying SMGs (most use pistol rounds, or "short" rifle rounds).  It is just that they lack the range and stopping power of assault rifles.

As for exchanging rounds between weapons, the M16A2 uses the same round as the M249 SAW (the standard squad-level machinegun for both the US Army and USMC).  The M240G (replaced the M60) fires a 7.62mm round, but is used at the platoon and company level.  The AK47, OTOH, fires a 7.62x39mm round that is compatible with Russian/Soviet weapons, but not NATO weapons.

Interestingly enough, the Soviets moved away from the 7.62mm round, switching to a 5.45x39mm round with greater muzzle velocity (850-900 m/s) in the mid-1970s.

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire...  shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at.  As for how to implemnt all this stuf ...

True.  Human nature is to duck when someone is shooting at you.  Self-preservation and all.. But soldiers are trained to achieve the mission objective.  And, often times, this includes killing the enemy.  As a result, most rounds (at the squad/platoon level.. I'm not talking about artillery) fired in combat, by trained professionals, is designed to kill the enemy.  Period.  If he's dead, he can't shoot you.
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Molon labe.
"Come and get them."

- Leonidas of Sparta, in response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms.
Thirsty Viking
Member

Posts: 238


« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2002, 10:58:51 AM »

Quote from: Sneaky Git
My apologies for the semi-rant nature of what follows..

Quote from: Thirsty Viking

Rifles have differing range increments.  as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.

That TN is overly harsh for a trained rifleman.  Max effective range for the M16A2 against point targets is 550 meters, and 800 meters for area targets.  

I'd disagree with you.  Based on my experience on firing ranges in the army.  A high percentage of shots by trained riflemen miss at 300 yards. in firing range conditions.  Assumptions need to be made about how well trained they are.  


Just so we are talking about the same range, here are the probabilities based on d rolled for hitting with a TN 12.

Code:

1 9.0%
2 17.2%
3 24.6%
4 31.4%
5 37.6%
6 43.2%
7 48.3%
8 53.0%
9 57.2%
10 61.1%

As you can see 53% of shots made with 8d will hit.  
Also Joe average without any training in the M16 can hit at 300 yards 31.4 % of the time if he aims.   I think TN of 12 might be generous.
Think I'd recomend TN 6 range increment 50 yards on an m 16 this gives TN 12  at 300 yards.

Instead of ACCURACY for hit location apply the -1 or -3 modifier to their TN with a rifle.  this generates your snipers and sharpshooters quite nicely.
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John Doerter   Nashville TN
Thirsty Viking
Member

Posts: 238


« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2002, 11:13:25 AM »

Quote from: Sneaky Git

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil.  do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing.  Recoiless weapons refresh normally..

This could work.  It's a good way to simulate recoil.. so long as the shooter fires more than once.

Isn't that the biggest effect of recoil ...  assuming a skilled shooter? sure i've seen novices knocked on their buts firing a grenade launcher, but not anyone with experience.
Quote from: Sneaky Git

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Once the US Army made a couple of minor changes, and switched powder, the M16's notorious jamming difficulties ceased. The M16A2, an evolution of the M16 and M16A1, is one of the most reliable assault rifles in the world.

Sounds good,  I hope it is now true.  It wasn't in the late 80's  but as you say my info may be a bit dated.  I never suggested that nothing has changed in 10 years...  Heck the soviets no longer own eastern europe.
Quote from: Sneaky Git

Remember, the goal is to kill the enemy.  If a pistol round was better at it, frontline combat troops would all be carrying SMGs (most use pistol rounds, or "short" rifle rounds).  It is just that they lack the range and stopping power of assault rifles.

More the range and accuracy than the stopping power.  You also have to hit, and maintain combat effectiveness.  SMG's are by thier nature less accurate and shorter range.   All weapons are trade offs.  If they weren't snipers would use the same weapon as a police officer walking a beat.  While velocity is part of the equation,  the mass of the round is as well.  When you trade mass for velocity you gain accuracy and distance.
Quote from: Sneaky Git

The AK47, OTOH, fires a 7.62x39mm round that is compatible with Russian/Soviet weapons, but not NATO weapons.

Perhaps this has changed, but they told me at West Point the Ak47 could use m60 rounds.. but the m60 couldn't use ak47 rounds.
Quote from: Sneaky Git

Quote from: Thirsty Viking
Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire...  shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at.  As for how to implemnt all this stuf ...

True.  Human nature is to duck when someone is shooting at you.  Self-preservation and all.. But soldiers are trained to achieve the mission objective.  And, often times, this includes killing the enemy.  As a result, most rounds (at the squad/platoon level.. I'm not talking about artillery) fired in combat, by trained professionals, is designed to kill the enemy.  Period.  If he's dead, he can't shoot you.


Most of rounds fired in combat miss.  Profesionals under fire will return fire in a war situation even if they don't have a target yet.  Sure a round is designed to kill.  But far more shots are fired..  at the platoon and squad level than ever hit thier target.


Lastly,  perhaps I shouldn't have said most.  but certainly less than most military pistols that would be carried by groups in an xcom situation.    Unless the starting charachters a street thugs.  (the bloods vs the aliens for Los Angelos is kinda a cool idea)  lol  OBVIOUSLY you have to hit to do any damage at all.   M16 is the weapon of choice in our army because we desire to engage at range whenever possible.  If you hit your enemy farther away than he hits you things shift in your favor.  It's also easier to safely call in support the further away from the enemy you are.
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John Doerter   Nashville TN
Lance D. Allen
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2002, 04:00:48 PM »

I'm going to have to throw in a few disagreements here...

Quote
I'd disagree with you. Based on my experience on firing ranges in the army. A high percentage of shots by trained riflemen miss at 300 yards. in firing range conditions. Assumptions need to be made about how well trained they are.


I'm hardly a trained rifleman, but I can hit the 500m. pop-up, without taking time to aim, with an M-16 most of the time. I was just a tanker, more comfortable with my M9 than my rifle, and more comfortable still with D-U Armor surrounding me, and putting 120mm rounds down-range. Oddly enough though, I could hit the 500m targets more often than the 50m. Had to do with the length of the weapon, -vs- the length of my arms, more than the accuracy of the rifle. I shoot considerably better with the M-4 Carbine (carbine version of the M16A2, if you're not familiar with it) than the M16A2, because it's a lot shorter rifle.

Quote
More the range and accuracy than the stopping power. You also have to hit, and maintain combat effectiveness. SMG's are by thier nature less accurate and shorter range. All weapons are trade offs. If they weren't snipers would use the same weapon as a police officer walking a beat. While velocity is part of the equation, the mass of the round is as well. When you trade mass for velocity you gain accuracy and distance.


Way we were taught, it was the tumble of the round once it penetrated a body that applied most of the stopping power. Something about the caliber of the round, the length, and the shape that makes it tumble once it hits soft-tissue. This is also the reason why the M16A1 was considered a less effective weapon during Vietnam and the Korean wars, due to the high amount of foliage. The bullets would hit the leaves and branches, then begin to tumble, drastically reducing accuracy and range. In clear terrain though, I've seen a sharpshooter put a round through an Ivan at 700m.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
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Bladesinger
Member

Posts: 8


« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2002, 10:49:58 PM »

Sneaky Git...you are very correct and our learned but missinformed or not quite as experienced comrade Thirsty Viking should heed your words,for you know of what you speak.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 10459


« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2002, 08:04:25 AM »

OK, I want to chime in.

I used both models of M16 from 1987 to 2002, and I found only a slight increase in reliability during that time. In general the damn things will jam after firing a lot of rounds. Not a huge problem, usually, but in combat potentially fatal. Anyhow, I still believe that the M16's reliability is mostly a matter of Army propaganda. Mewanwhile I got the honor once of firing the millionth round from an AK 47 at a test site (I think they told everone that, I think that many more than a million rounds had been fired). It had never been cleaned once in all that time, and had never once jammed. Apparently it's next to impossible. Consider the designer. Kalishnikov was a soldier himself, and wanted to make a weapon that would withstand the rigors that he had seen on the East Front in WWII. Not hard to believe that the lowest US bidder (and owned by Mattel, for that matter) Colt, makes a sub-standard weapon. Democracy at work. ;-)

Anyhow, that all said, it's not an unusable weapon by any means.

Also, comparing the M16 load to a pistol load does not hold up. Yes, it's a .223 or 4.45 MM round (to be precise). But it's hardly rimfire ammo. The load is much larger. Also, longer barrel length translates to higher veolocity. IOW, the round that comes out of an M16 is much more dangerous than all but the largest pistol rounds. In fact, the tumbling effect is not all that large with the M16, actually, thats an effect of all small calibre weapons. A lot of the damage done with such high velocity military rounds is due to tissue shock caused by the suction of the round traveling through tissue at such high velocities. IOW, not only does it make a hole, but it tends to bruise and tear lots of surrounding tissue. Which is effective in combat. It makes for injured soldiers, not dead. Which is advantageous in combat. Each injured soldier requires at least one more uninjured soldier to tend to.

That all said, any 7.62 round is going to beat it hands down for damage. These are all similar to or larger than the 30-06 rounds hunters commonly use for deer hunting. And they are very effective. The FN/FAL uses such a round and came under a lot of scritiny in France where their equivalent of SWAT teams used the weapons. Seems that too many bad guys were being shot and the round was going straight through and injuring innocent bystanders. 7.62 is scarry powerful.

The 7.62 that NATO uses, and the Warsaw Pact nations use are, the same calibre, but different lengths. Hence John is correct about interchangability amongst the weapons he cited. But I think that he has them reversed. I think that the NATO round is larger and therefore does not fit into the AK-47. I'd have to check. The ammo is often listed by its length as well as calibre to differentiate.

I qualified expert on most occasions, but when I missed, I missed the far targets as one would expect. I'd get it to about a 10TN or so at that far target. Here's an important consideration. Notice how in ranging the targets the intervals in between tend to increase? That's because ffom a human perspective, things need to double or halve in perceptibility to have an affect on our ability to sense them. See the GRUPS range/size/movement table.

IOW, ranges sould not just add straight for powered weapons. For muscle powered weapons, the problem is oomph, and so linear progression will work for them. But for firearms and energy weapons especially, drop is not nearly the problem. So instead of calculating a penalty for every increment of so many yards, it should be at the doubling of a certain increment. So if we choose 25 meters as PB for a M16, then:

50 meters  TN+1
100 meters TN+2
200 meters TN+3
400 meters TN+4
800 meters TN+5

I might even go to 20 meters base. Given the above, I'd go with a TN 6 base for the M16. That means that a guy with CP 10 will still miss the 400 meter target 35% of the time. Which means he'll probably qualify expert (not really that hard). I probably had a CP of 7-8 IRL (National Guard, part time, FA, :-)  , which is why I often only made sharpshooter. This seems to make sense to me.

Are there penalties for moving targets in TROS? There ought to be; it makes as much difference as range.

Note that I'd also require a shift from 10 to 12 as TN 11 is the same as TN 10.

Just my thoughts.

Interestigly, for single shots, the laser isn't going to be much better. Again, the limitation is human perception. Any of these weapons can mount a scope which will reduce the range penalty effectively, but increase movent penalties, interestingly.

Mike
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svenlein
Member

Posts: 114


« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2002, 08:30:25 AM »

Here is a web site with lots of information on wounding effect of firearms:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Specificly the "Wound Ballistics" liink.

I would love to here a rebuttal about it.
For example they consider the effect of hydrostatic shock to be minimal for stopping or killing a target.

Does anyone have a better researched source than this link?

Scott
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Thirsty Viking
Member

Posts: 238


« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2002, 09:28:27 AM »

It's not worth argueing over.  There are always gifted sharpshooters, and there are always those who have a lot of skill.  getting hit with almost any bullet hurts.  even a little derringer rd and be quite effective.  Take your propaganda and make hitting at 700 yards with an M16 a TN of 5 for all I care,  and have it tear limbs off of peoples bodies with every hit,  Its your game.  Under the numbers I proposed an M16  would have a TN 20 at 700 yards,  a TN of 17 in the hands of someone with major Accuracy.  If it had a scope, that TN would be still less (no I have never used an M16 with a scope).

As for the anecdotal evidence of hitting more often at 500 yards than at 50 yards...  I have no responce.

about TN's for an M16

From army firing Range documents:
Quote

B-4.  CONDUCT OF THE RECORD FIRE RANGE:

  a.  Rifle record fire will normally be fired on Range 32 or Range 101.  These ranges are computerized and have 16 firing points.  Range Control will provide tower operators for these ranges.  The OIC will coordinate with the tower operator for specifics about running the range.  Soldiers are required to detect and engage targets at distances ranging from 50 meters to 300 meters.  Soldiers will fire two twenty round magazines.  The 1st will be fired from the foxhole supported position.  The 2nd will be fired from the prone unsupported position. The following standards apply:
Code:

          RATING              STANDARD
          EXPERT               36-40
          SHARPSHOOTER         30-35
          MARKSMAN             23-29
          UNQUALIFIED          22-BELOW


20 shots from a foxhole with weapon supported by sandbags.
20 shots prone with elbows supported by the ground.

These could be argued for additional dice, or lowering of target number.

Reguardless the army qualifies a marksman as someone who misses with an M16 less than 45% of the time.  In game terms they would be rolling their the lesser of MP or WIT x2 dice.

Are there people who hit almost every time... Yes
Would a person with major gift Accuracy Hit almost every time ... Yes
a person with minor gift accuracy as presented normally qualify as a sharpshooter, and major gift as an expert (tn9 with 8 dice hitts 98% of time at 200 yards and 83% of time at 300.   ...  typical score of about 38 --- the odds only go up if he has wit 5 and 10d mp)

So I'll stick by my numbers with the house rule for Shooting gift

Minor Gift Sharpshooter - Reduces Range penalty by 1
Major Gift Expertshooter - Reduces Range Penalty by 3

firing Position Prone  +1d for shooting attacks
firing position Foxhole/supported +2d for shooting attacks

Reguardless of annecdotes, it models the U.S. army with an M16 fairly well

As for stopping power you may be right... all the people I talked with shot their foes in Jungles of Vietnam and Central America.  They weren't too happy with it.  I was out before fighting in the desert.  Your explanation if accurate would reconcile the points of view and suggest a weapon specific rule for vegetation AV's.  That being said, I still believe that making an m16 with one success a Damage level of 9  is too much. That is what was proposed in the initial ranges.
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If you care to reply,  the needed change
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John Doerter   Nashville TN
Mokkurkalfe
Member

Posts: 340


« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2002, 10:38:40 AM »

Whoa...Lots of knowledge being thrown around here.

I really appreciate your answers, and have made up some hodge-podge rules.

Single shot:
As with a bow. With semi-automatic weapons, you can shoot twice a round.
The second shot's Refresh is penalized by the Recoil value.

Burst:
As with a single shot, although only MP(refresh as usual) minus Recoil dice can be used.
1-2 successes means one hit,3-4 successes means two hits, 5+ means three hits.

Automatic fire:
You can use your entire MP. You may divide your dice between up to three targets if you wish(assuming they're standing somewhat close).
Unless you have a bipod/tripod, you fire at TN+2, and have to subtract the Recoil value from your MP.

Mike's point is a very good one. The range increment should double each time.

And some values for this to make sense

Pistol
Damage 5p
ATN 5 +1/15 m
Recoil 1
Ammo 8

SMG
Damage 4p
ATN 5 +1/15 m
Recoil 1
Ammo 25

Assault rifle
Damage 6p
ATN 6 +1/50 m
Recoil 2
Ammo 30


Some more questions also.
How much ammo should these things have?
a) a "standard", nameless machinegun
b) a hand-held cannon(fires single, big, explosive rounds)
c) an auto-cannon/minigun

Constuctive criticism would be appreciated, especially on the weapon values, since I know next to nothing about these things.

Hmmm...I can't preview my post...
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Joakim (with a k!) Israelsson
Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2002, 12:31:07 PM »

Quote from: svenlein
Here is a web site with lots of information on wounding effect of firearms:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Specificly the "Wound Ballistics" liink.

I would love to here a rebuttal about it.
For example they consider the effect of hydrostatic shock to be minimal for stopping or killing a target.

Does anyone have a better researched source than this link?


I agree totally. I didn't mean to imply that the M16 was particularly lethal, myself. Hydorstatic shock, as I said, hurts. Al lI said was that the M16 is as lethal or worse than most handguns. Handgun "stopping power" is a myth. In fact "stopping Power" is pretty much a myth. That is (and nobody believes me when I say this) that people experince the same impact when they are hit by a bullet as the firer does from the recoil. Exactly the same, actually (see Newton, Isaac). People tend to fall down actually, get this, because they think they're supposed to. The FBI recommends larger calibres (as bigger holes are nastier), but admits that the affects gained are limited. Simply put most firearms are not nearly as lethal as people think.

Oh, and where do I get all this data? The same site as the above. Where I get most of my non-anecdotal (anyone want to hear about firing a fifty cal, or 155mm howitzer?) data on firearms. You can find me quoting it on other sites like GO.

Mike
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