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Author Topic: Rules confusions (long!)  (Read 4865 times)
hyphz
Member

Posts: 157


« on: October 29, 2002, 11:41:27 AM »

- The text says that Destiny SA dice "refresh every round", that
  Luck ones "may refresh every session".  How often do the other types
  of SA Dice refresh?  Many of them say "when the Seneschal deems
  appropriate" - does that mean the Seneschal chooses when they can be
  used, or when they refresh?  If it's just "you can use them when the
  Seneschal says it's appropriate", how are Destiny dice any different
  (ie, why do they have explicit text about 'refreshing' when the others
  do not?)  
   
- Permanently spending a luck SA point causes "instant success in a matter
  out of your hands - like a hay cart at the bottom of the tower you just
  fell out of - no matter what the TN."  Surely you would not normally make a
  roll to see if a haycart was present at the bottom of a tower - so does Luck
  cause instant success on a roll, or allow a bit of Director Stance to seep in?
 
- The Manuevers section says that feint-and-cut has a high activation cost,
  but never says what it is; it also says exotic feints to different areas increase
  the activation cost, but it never says how; and the Proficiencies descriptions all
  list the cost of feint as either 1 or "variable".  What is it?  And, on those
  proficiencies which list the cost as 1, does this mean that in those cases the
  cost is not variable and thus suppress some of the rules that would make the cost
  higher (like the repetition rule)?  
 
- Feint and Thrust says that you pay effectively 2 CP for every dice added to your
  attack "as with Feint and Cut".  Feint and Cut doesn't say this - it says that
  it's only 1 CP per die, equivalent to just taking the dice from the combat pool
  as for the initial attack.  Which is correct?
 
- Feint and Thrust says that the attacker may "add any number of CP dice to his
  pool"; I presume they mean "hand" or nothing makes any sense.  (Adding pool dice to
  the pool would be zero sum!)

- What happens if you fail the Reflex roll to switch to Half-Sword?

- Hook:  I presume that the lost Knockdown attribute points are restored after the
  knockdown check.
 
- This seems like a serious Murphy:  Is it really intended that throwing a dagger in
  someone's face does no more damage than throwing a glove?
 
- Having a weapon expelled gives "the defender [a] CP penalty against thrusting
  attacks".  How does a CP penalty work against just one thing?  Does it just
  reduce the effective pool available ("well, my pool is 8, I have a -3 penalty so
  I could only spend 5, but I only actually wanted to spend 3 anyway so it doesn't
  matter"), or does it mean that the cost of defending against a thrust is increased
  ("I have a -3 penalty, so to get a 3 dice parry I have to spend 6 dice")?  This
  applies to CP penalties for weapon length too.
 
- The Body Language skill can be used in response to a declared feint, and if
  successful adds dice to your CP.  Since your defense has already been declared at
  that time, I presume it also gives you a chance to decide to spend those dice on
  your defense, rather than just leaving them to sit unused in the combat pool.
 
- You get an Insight point "whenever you spend a SA point": do you have to explicitly
  choose to spend SA points on Insight, or does it really you get an Insight point for
  spending an SA point on an Attribute (for example)?

- Getting a minor gift costs 10 SA, getting a major costs 20: how much does it cost to
  upgrade a minor to its major equivalent?  10 or 20?
 
- "The Flow of Time", and "Exchange of Blows", say that there are two Exchanges in a
  round.  "Order Of A Round" refers to the first and second halves of a single exchange,
  thus meaning that there is one Exchange a round.  Which is correct?

- When the combat pool refreshes, are extra dice eliminated?  If they are, there's no
  point using any manuever that grants a future CP bonus in the second exchange / second
  half of the exchange; but if they aren't, when you go to 1 HT you can "save" any
  pool dice you already have to escape the halving.
   
- Failing a terrain roll loses half your CP - but I presume it also stops you doing
  whatever you were doing that round?  Is it half of whatever's left after your action
  or half of your total CP potential?
 
- When you get to 1 HT, all your attributes and pools are halved.  Does that mean that
  the pool size is recalculated for the new lower attributes and then halved AGAIN?
 
- For a knockdown the roll is based on the attacker's margin "after defense but before
  armor"; before or after TO?
 
- What does botching an attack actually do?

- In the combat example, Stefan has a pool of 13.  He spends 5 on an attack, and loses
  3 from a Duck and Weave - he should have 5 left, but the text says "He uses his last
  4..." - did he lose one somehow?  He then gets hit with Shock 3 Pain 6-WP.  "Next
  round he will have only 6 dice, and only 7 every one thereafter."  At Pain 6-WP this
  would mean he had 0 WP!?  And if he's taking 3 Shock, he should have only 5 dice next
  round (7 dice after pain, -2 shock (one was absorbed by the 1 CP he had left
  over).  Or am I confused here?
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Jake Norwood
Member

Posts: 2261


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2002, 12:27:08 PM »

I don't have time for all of these, but I'll hit a few now.

Quote from: hyphz
- The text says that Destiny SA dice "refresh every round", that
  Luck ones "may refresh every session".  How often do the other types
  of SA Dice refresh?  Many of them say "when the Seneschal deems
  appropriate" - does that mean the Seneschal chooses when they can be
  used, or when they refresh?  If it's just "you can use them when the
  Seneschal says it's appropriate", how are Destiny dice any different
  (ie, why do they have explicit text about 'refreshing' when the others
  do not?)


All the time. Destiny and Luck are a little wierd, hence the extra explaining. Others don't refresh per se...rather they modify every appropriate roll.  
   
Quote
- Permanently spending a luck SA point causes "instant success in a matter
  out of your hands - like a hay cart at the bottom of the tower you just
  fell out of - no matter what the TN."  Surely you would not normally make a
  roll to see if a haycart was present at the bottom of a tower - so does Luck
  cause instant success on a roll, or allow a bit of Director Stance to seep in?
 

Both.

Quote
- The Manuevers section says that feint-and-cut has a high activation cost,
  but never says what it is; it also says exotic feints to different areas increase
  the activation cost, but it never says how; and the Proficiencies descriptions all
  list the cost of feint as either 1 or "variable".  What is it?  And, on those
  proficiencies which list the cost as 1, does this mean that in those cases the
  cost is not variable and thus suppress some of the rules that would make the cost
  higher (like the repetition rule)?  
- Feint and Thrust says that you pay effectively 2 CP for every dice added to your
  attack "as with Feint and Cut".  Feint and Cut doesn't say this - it says that
  it's only 1 CP per die, equivalent to just taking the dice from the combat pool
  as for the initial attack.  Which is correct?
 

Sorry for the inclarity...it's the same in both cases: 2 CP for one extra into the pool.

 
Quote
- Feint and Thrust says that the attacker may "add any number of CP dice to his
  pool"; I presume they mean "hand" or nothing makes any sense.  (Adding pool dice to
  the pool would be zero sum!)


That's correct.

Quote
- What happens if you fail the Reflex roll to switch to Half-Sword?


You explode and your chunks go flying everywhere. I saw it once...it was horrible.

Actually nothing. You simply fail to go into half-sword and have to wait until your next chance.

Quote
- Hook:  I presume that the lost Knockdown attribute points are restored after the
  knockdown check.


Sure.

Quote
- This seems like a serious Murphy:  Is it really intended that throwing a dagger in
  someone's face does no more damage than throwing a glove?
 

Actually this is intentional. The purpose of a toss is to distract, not to injure. If you want to cause a level one bludeoning wound then go ahead, but it's not there for simplicity. Sure, the blade could hit, but you might as well actually throw the knife for damage according to those rules in such a case.

Quote
- Having a weapon expelled gives "the defender [a] CP penalty against thrusting
  attacks".  How does a CP penalty work against just one thing?  Does it just
  reduce the effective pool available ("well, my pool is 8, I have a -3 penalty so
  I could only spend 5, but I only actually wanted to spend 3 anyway so it doesn't
  matter"), or does it mean that the cost of defending against a thrust is increased
  ("I have a -3 penalty, so to get a 3 dice parry I have to spend 6 dice")?  This
  applies to CP penalties for weapon length too.


CP refers to the dice and to the pool. A CP penalty removes dice. Thus if you want to attack with 6 dice and you have a -3 penalty then your 6 die attack costs 9 dice.
 
Quote
- The Body Language skill can be used in response to a declared feint, and if
  successful adds dice to your CP.  Since your defense has already been declared at
  that time, I presume it also gives you a chance to decide to spend those dice on
  your defense, rather than just leaving them to sit unused in the combat pool.


That's the idea.
 
Quote
- You get an Insight point "whenever you spend a SA point": do you have to explicitly
  choose to spend SA points on Insight, or does it really you get an Insight point for
  spending an SA point on an Attribute (for example)?


Anytime you spend SA on character advancement you get Insight. You never spend directly into insight.

Quote
- Getting a minor gift costs 10 SA, getting a major costs 20: how much does it cost to
  upgrade a minor to its major equivalent?  10 or 20?


I would say 10, but that's just me.
 
Quote
- "The Flow of Time", and "Exchange of Blows", say that there are two Exchanges in a
  round.  "Order Of A Round" refers to the first and second halves of a single exchange,
  thus meaning that there is one Exchange a round.  Which is correct?


Not sure I follow. The "order of a round" does outline both exchanges. An exhange is one roll, when both the attacker and defender roll. This happens twice in a round.

Quote
- When the combat pool refreshes, are extra dice eliminated?  If they are, there's no
  point using any manuever that grants a future CP bonus in the second exchange / second
  half of the exchange; but if they aren't, when you go to 1 HT you can "save" any
  pool dice you already have to escape the halving.


No, they are not lost. This is a "secret" of TROS combat--using manuevers to pump up your pool so that when it refreshes you have lots of dice.
   
Quote
- Failing a terrain roll loses half your CP - but I presume it also stops you doing
  whatever you were doing that round?  Is it half of whatever's left after your action
  or half of your total CP potential?


Again, not sure I follow. If you fail you can still attack, but you've got less dice.
 
Quote
- When you get to 1 HT, all your attributes and pools are halved.  Does that mean that
  the pool size is recalculated for the new lower attributes and then halved AGAIN?


No. The pools are halved as a general rule to keep you from having to re-caculate everything.
 
Quote
- For a knockdown the roll is based on the attacker's margin "after defense but before
  armor"; before or after TO?


Before TO.
 
Quote
- What does botching an attack actually do?


That's up to your benevolent Seneschal. You miss, and your opponent gets a cheap shot.

Quote
- In the combat example, Stefan has a pool of 13.  He spends 5 on an attack, and loses
  3 from a Duck and Weave - he should have 5 left, but the text says "He uses his last
  4..." - did he lose one somehow?  He then gets hit with Shock 3 Pain 6-WP.  "Next
  round he will have only 6 dice, and only 7 every one thereafter."  At Pain 6-WP this
  would mean he had 0 WP!?  And if he's taking 3 Shock, he should have only 5 dice next
  round (7 dice after pain, -2 shock (one was absorbed by the 1 CP he had left
  over).  Or am I confused here?


Looks like a typo. Which edition do you have (is there a white ARMA logo on the back cover)?

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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www.theriddleofsteel.NET
Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2002, 12:48:57 PM »

I should probably just let Jake handle this, but I can answer some of them anyway.

[edit] oops.. looks like I posted at the same time as Jake. Oh well :-) [/edit]

Quote from: hyphz
The text says that Destiny SA dice "refresh every round", that
  Luck ones "may refresh every session".  How often do the other types
  of SA Dice refresh?  Many of them say "when the Seneschal deems
  appropriate" - does that mean the Seneschal chooses when they can be
  used, or when they refresh?  If it's just "you can use them when the
  Seneschal says it's appropriate", how are Destiny dice any different
  (ie, why do they have explicit text about 'refreshing' when the others
  do not?)  


Luck only lets you use each die once per session, and Passions can only be used a limited number of times per session, but the rest can be used whenever appropriate. Destiny dice are basically like the other SA's, but fractionally different. Drive (for example) can be added to any and all rolls that are appropriate. If I make three rolls in one round, and all are applicable for Drive, then I add my full drive to each roll. Destiny can be added similarly, but each ROUND you only get your Destiny total, so if I make three rolls, I would have to divide my destiny dice among the three rolls instead of getting all dice to each. Then the next round, that's refreshed so I can do it again, and so on until the Seneschal says Destiny no longer applies.

Quote from: hyphz
Permanently spending a luck SA point causes "instant success in a matter
  out of your hands - like a hay cart at the bottom of the tower you just
  fell out of - no matter what the TN."  Surely you would not normally make a
  roll to see if a haycart was present at the bottom of a tower - so does Luck
  cause instant success on a roll, or allow a bit of Director Stance to seep in?


Director Stance.
 
Quote from: hyphz
The Manuevers section says that feint-and-cut has a high activation cost,
  but never says what it is; it also says exotic feints to different areas increase
  the activation cost, but it never says how; and the Proficiencies descriptions all
  list the cost of feint as either 1 or "variable".  What is it?  And, on those
  proficiencies which list the cost as 1, does this mean that in those cases the
  cost is not variable and thus suppress some of the rules that would make the cost
  higher (like the repetition rule)?  


Actually, there's not much difference between the two that I can see (other than the proficiency requirement to use them). To make a feint, you pay the activation cost X and then add dice to your attack pool on a 2-for-one basis (after X, 6 dice would let you add 3 to your attack) and you choose a different location. X is defined as 1 with case of rapiers, and 0 in all other cases, but every subsequent feint on the same opponent (ever) increases X by 1.

Note that Rapiers can feint from a thrust, but everything else has to feint from a slash.
 
Quote from: hyphz
Feint and Thrust says that the attacker may "add any number of CP dice to his
  pool"; I presume they mean "hand" or nothing makes any sense.  (Adding pool dice to
  the pool would be zero sum!)


Attacking pool, not combat pool.

Quote from: hyphz
What happens if you fail the Reflex roll to switch to Half-Sword?


You failed to half sword, it's still in a regular grip.

Quote from: hyphz
This seems like a serious Murphy:  Is it really intended that throwing a dagger in  
  someone's face does no more damage than throwing a glove?


The throw maneuver is only a distraction, you're not attacking him with the thrown dagger, just using it as a distraction. If you want to actually throw a dagger into his face, you have to use MP and it's really not something to do in the middle of melee combat.

Quote from: hyphz
Having a weapon expelled gives "the defender [a] CP penalty against thrusting
  attacks".  How does a CP penalty work against just one thing?  Does it just
  reduce the effective pool available ("well, my pool is 8, I have a -3 penalty so
  I could only spend 5, but I only actually wanted to spend 3 anyway so it doesn't
  matter"), or does it mean that the cost of defending against a thrust is increased
  ("I have a -3 penalty, so to get a 3 dice parry I have to spend 6 dice")?  This
  applies to CP penalties for weapon length too.


Expulsion is badly worded IMO. What is means is this: If you attack me and I do an expulsion, lets say with 4 successes margin, then the following exchange, as long as I do a thrust attack at you, you'll lose 4 dice from your CP. Sure, if you have plenty left it might not be a problem for you, but it might. If I don't thrust against you, the expulsion benefit is lost.
 
Quote from: hyphz
The Body Language skill can be used in response to a declared feint, and if
  successful adds dice to your CP.  Since your defense has already been declared at
  that time, I presume it also gives you a chance to decide to spend those dice on
  your defense, rather than just leaving them to sit unused in the combat pool.


Sure. Why not.
 
Quote from: hyphz
You get an Insight point "whenever you spend a SA point": do you have to explicitly
  choose to spend SA points on Insight, or does it really you get an Insight point for
  spending an SA point on an Attribute (for example)?


You don't spend points on insight, it just accumulates as you spend them on other things.

Quote from: hyphz
Getting a minor gift costs 10 SA, getting a major costs 20: how much does it cost to
  upgrade a minor to its major equivalent?  10 or 20?

 
10

Quote from: hyphz
"The Flow of Time", and "Exchange of Blows", say that there are two Exchanges in a
  round.  "Order Of A Round" refers to the first and second halves of a single exchange,
  thus meaning that there is one Exchange a round.  Which is correct?


One round = two exchanges, except in the case of a red/red in which case there's only one exchange.

House rule alert: Combat rounds are variable 1-2 seconds, but this can be problematic when you have people with missile weapons being involved, so I have fixed combat rounds at 2 seconds (each exchange is one second) so that bow use etc is easy to work out.

Quote from: hyphz
When the combat pool refreshes, are extra dice eliminated?  If they are, there's no
  point using any manuever that grants a future CP bonus in the second exchange / second
  half of the exchange; but if they aren't, when you go to 1 HT you can "save" any
  pool dice you already have to escape the halving.


Your CP refreshes at the start of the round, and then you add any bonus dice you are due from maneuvers, and/or lose any penalty dice from maneuvers, pain, shock. At 1 HT, you refresh (to half your CP because of the 1HT) and then add or subtract.
   
Quote from: hyphz
Failing a terrain roll loses half your CP - but I presume it also stops you doing
  whatever you were doing that round?  Is it half of whatever's left after your action
  or half of your total CP potential?


Well, I always make players make their terrain roll first in the round, so if they fail and lose dice, this takes effect before they assign attack or defense dice for the round.
 
Quote from: hyphz
When you get to 1 HT, all your attributes and pools are halved.  Does that mean that
  the pool size is recalculated for the new lower attributes and then halved AGAIN?


Nah, just the once. It's done like this to avoid making you half all your attributes and then have to calculate your new CP. For ease sake, just half attributes and half CP and assume it's probably about right.
 
Quote from: hyphz
For a knockdown the roll is based on the attacker's margin "after defense but before
  armor"; before or after TO?


Without TO. TO and Armor work in basically the same way - they reduce damage. In this case, how well you can take a blow is irrelevant, all that matters is how well you avoided the attack.
 
Quote from: hyphz
What does botching an attack actually do?


You not only missed, but at the start of the next exchange you lose half the number of dice you assigned to the attack. So if I attack you with 6 dice and botch, at the start of the next exchange, I lose 3 dice (after refreshing if it's a new round).

Quote from: hyphz
In the combat example, Stefan has a pool of 13.  He spends 5 on an attack, and loses
  3 from a Duck and Weave - he should have 5 left, but the text says "He uses his last
  4..." - did he lose one somehow?  He then gets hit with Shock 3 Pain 6-WP.  "Next
  round he will have only 6 dice, and only 7 every one thereafter."  At Pain 6-WP this
  would mean he had 0 WP!?  And if he's taking 3 Shock, he should have only 5 dice next
  round (7 dice after pain, -2 shock (one was absorbed by the 1 CP he had left
  over).  Or am I confused here?


It's pretty hard to keep everyhting exact in a complex combat example, I suspect whoever wrote it just got a bit muddled with numbers.

Also, remember that you never take shock leftover and pain in the same round, just the highest of the two. If I get hit for 5 shock and 3 pain, then I lose 5 dice straight away, and 3 dice at the start of every round thereafter. If I don't have 5 dice to lose, I lose the extra at the start of the following round but lets say I have 4 left-over shock and 3 pain, I only lose 4 dice, not 7. If I have 2 left over shock and 3 pain, I only lose 3 dice not 5. Etc.

Hope that helps.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
hyphz
Member

Posts: 157


« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2002, 10:17:35 AM »

Thanks everyone for your replies!

Quote

CP refers to the dice and to the pool. A CP penalty removes dice. Thus if you want to attack with 6 dice and you have a -3 penalty then your 6 die attack costs 9 dice.


Ok.. but then, if your armor has a -1 CP penalty, that doesn't mean you have to pay an extra 1 CP for everything you do, or does it?
 
Quote

Not sure I follow. The "order of a round" does outline both exchanges. An exhange is one roll, when both the attacker and defender roll. This happens twice in a round.


The exact wording used in "order of a round" refers to steps 3 and 5 as the first and second "halves of the exchange" implying only one exchange.  But I understand it's two.

Quote

Again, not sure I follow. If you fail you can still attack, but you've got less dice.


Now this is where I get unsure.  The dice for your attack have already been taken from the combat pool, so surely losing dice from the CP won't affect your roll?  It just seems like the wording "-x CP" can mean two different things (remove x dice from the pool, or increase all costs by X), how can I tell which it means it a particular context?
 
Quote

Quote
- What does botching an attack actually do?

That's up to your benevolent Seneschal. You miss, and your opponent gets a cheap shot.


Well.. the problem is with Duck and Weave that says I can 'attack as if the opponent botched, he will be at a CP penalty'.  Does this mean that the Seneschal is obliged to choose that the opponent gets a CP penalty?  How big?

Quote
Looks like a typo. Which edition do you have (is there a white ARMA logo on the back cover)?


Yes - but I screwed up on this one and misread part of the example.  Forget I said anything.  

One other question: what do the two sets of statistics for a Doppelhander refer to?  Is it normal and half-sword?  

Also, the half-sword manuever gives the ATN and DTN of anything held in a half-sword grip - they are better than most short swords!  Does the damage done vary?  And if not, why would anyone use a short sword as opposed to a half-sworded long sword?
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Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2002, 11:34:42 AM »

Hopefully, Jake and I wont "simul-post" again :-)

Quote
Quote

Quote
- What does botching an attack actually do?

That's up to your benevolent Seneschal. You miss, and your opponent gets a cheap shot.


Well.. the problem is with Duck and Weave that says I can 'attack as if the opponent botched, he will be at a CP penalty'.  Does this mean that the Seneschal is obliged to choose that the opponent gets a CP penalty?  How big?


Yeah, there are actually rules for what happens when you botch an attack.. I guess Jake forgot :-) See my reply above; basically aty the start of the next exchange you lose half the number of dice you committed to the attack you botched.

Quote
One other question: what do the two sets of statistics for a Doppelhander refer to?  Is it normal and half-sword?  


Yup.

Quote
Also, the half-sword manuever gives the ATN and DTN of anything held in a half-sword grip - they are better than most short swords!  Does the damage done vary?  And if not, why would anyone use a short sword as opposed to a half-sworded long sword?


Because half-swording a longer sword takes two hands, but with a short sword your other hand is free for a grab or toss, to hold a shield or dagger, hold another short sword, etc.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Lyrax
Member

Posts: 268


« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2002, 02:21:46 PM »

Quote from: hyphz

Ok.. but then, if your armor has a -1 CP penalty, that doesn't mean you have to pay an extra 1 CP for everything you do, or does it?

No, Armor penalties and other such penalties modify the number of dice you have available in your Combat Pool.  Range penalties and others like it penalize the roll (Spend 9 dice for a 6-dice attack).  This second group is more like a "cost" than a "penalty."

Quote

The exact wording used in "order of a round" refers to steps 3 and 5 as the first and second "halves of the exchange" implying only one exchange.  But I understand it's two.

That probably should have been more clear.  It is describing the events in the exchange, but there are two exchanges.  You simply follow steps three through five twice (unless both parties run out of dice before that).

Quote

Now this is where I get unsure.  The dice for your attack have already been taken from the combat pool, so surely losing dice from the CP won't affect your roll?  It just seems like the wording "-x CP" can mean two different things (remove x dice from the pool, or increase all costs by X), how can I tell which it means it a particular context?

losing x CP usually means that x dice are simply sucked out of the pool, such as with the 'toss' and 'stop short' maneuvers.  Rarely is the penalty "increase all costs by x," although I think the expulsion (never used this one, so I'm not sure) is one of those rare exceptions, as is range.

Quote

Also, the half-sword manuever gives the ATN and DTN of anything held in a half-sword grip - they are better than most short swords!  Does the damage done vary?  And if not, why would anyone use a short sword as opposed to a half-sworded long sword?

As Brian said, half-swording requires two hands (and yes, the damage is really high, and the stats are really low), but the shortsword requires only one.  Also, the short sword can be more easily carried, hidden, etc.  A long sword is seen as a threat no matter what.  Yes, in a one-on-one combat, a long sword is a superior weapon to the short sword.  That's why soldiers generally carry longswords, not short ones.
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Lance Meibos
Insanity takes it's toll.  Please have exact change ready.

Get him quick!  He's still got 42 hit points left!
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