*
*
Home
Help
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 30, 2022, 08:36:10 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Search:     Advanced search
275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 76 - most online ever: 565 (October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Print
Author Topic: "We fear change!"  (Read 17718 times)
Matt Snyder
Member

Posts: 1380


WWW
« on: October 30, 2002, 02:53:15 PM »

Question for everyone -- why are there fewer and fewer encouraging responses and rigorous discussions in the Indie Game Design forum?

To me, that forum (and maybe Actual Play) is the single most valuable resource on these forums. And yet, the folks from whom I want to hear are largely absent. The "old guard" just doesn't post as much any more -- myself included. I lurk like crazy there, but many wonderful, creative voices have quieted.

What appears to be happening (please do correct me if my superficial scan is just wrong) is that we have a slew of "new guard" and some "middle guard" regulars who keep posting at most anything that comes along -- Pale Fire, for example, who's definitely a prolific poster. This is, of course, wonderful! New blood is great. My concern is: Why the loss, or at least reduction of the old blood, too?

As I write this, 9 of the most recent 40 posts on Indie Game Design have 0 replies, and 6 of the most recent 40 have one or two replies. That means that almost 40% of posts there are largely unreplied to. Well, ok it doesn't quite mean that, as one or two of those threads are simple announcements.

Other observations -- the forum has a much higher post turnover rate, unlike, say, last year at this time when 4 or 5 subjects would be discussed thoroughly for a string of days before a new crop cycled through. Now, we have two-day old posts falling off the first page. That kind of frequent, rigorous discussion is what I miss most.

Now, rather obviously, I'm as guilty -- probably more so! -- as the next guy or gal. I mean, let's face it, I just don't reply much -- certainly not as much as I used too -- and that's pretty irresponsible in several ways. Give and take, and all that. I have lots of reasons, like I'm busy with this or that (victim of my own success?). I'm sure many of the people whose commentary I miss have similar reasons or excuses.

In fact, I confess entirely selfish reasons for posting this -- I was eager to see some commentary from people I recognize regarding two recent posts I made on my new project, Nine Worlds. So far, Jonathan Walton, four weeping willows and Demonspahn have commented (and I certainly appreciate that -- don't mean to diminish their good feedback!). Other than their commentary (and, granted, we're not talking about months old posts here), feedback has been nil.

Now, I don't mean to suggest this as a means to get some feedback for me. I'm a big boy, and I already know what a good number of people think about my new game. For all appearances otherwise, I don't mean this to be me whining.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this: There's simply no denying the Forge has changed over the last year pretty dramatically. There's also no use in suggesting it wouldn't or needn't change! Obviously, that's so. However, has it changed for the better for you (and I'm speaking more so to the many regulars who've been here for, say, a year or more)? I submit that for me, at least, it's usefulness to me as a game designer has suffered noticably becaue the community of voices I seek has quieted noticably. It probably has improved for me as a vehicle to share my games with customers and potential customers.

Do you come for the Forge for the same reasons you used to? If so, are you still satisfied? If not, what's changed for you? Have things changed negatively? If so, would you like to do something about it, or see others do something about it? Have the change been more positive for you? How so?
Logged

Matt Snyder
www.chimera.info

"The future ain't what it used to be."
--Yogi Berra
Christoffer Lernö
Member

Posts: 822


« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2002, 04:31:10 PM »

Just a quick comment here Matt: I'm always wondering how to breathe more life into those subjects that I post. For some reason posting a long detailed analysis of something usually is exactly what kills it a thread.
I must be doing something wrong. Look at my threads, how many of the ones I started actually had the final post written by yours truly?
Pretty damn many of them.

Finally I've figured out that the best way is kind of throwing out a subject and then let people jump at it and discuss it amongst themselves without contributing. This method might yield 10+ comments compared to the 1 or two you harvest if you jumped in after the first comment.

But I guess most of the problem is in me. I must be doing something wrong to be killing off my threads even when I wish the discussion to continue.
Logged

formerly Pale Fire
[Yggdrasil (in progress) | The Evil (v1.2)]
Ranked #1005 in meaningful posts
Indie-Netgaming member
Bob McNamee
Member

Posts: 685


« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2002, 07:02:35 PM »

The way I use the site is to hit the "Show posts since last visit".

This can lead to from 2 (average) to 5 (heavy) pages of threads with posts in them.  Of these, I read many of them or at least skim them. Some topics I skip over entirely...others I always read when new stuff is there.

How much of the rest I read is dependant on how 'busy' the site is that day... mostly I 'bounce' from one post i'm following to another, with stops on 'interesting looking topics'. On busy days take long enough to plow through everything i'm already following.

Posting on them is something else...
I lurk a lot, and have been for months. I often don't have anything to add that hasn't been said first or better by someone else.

Regarding Nine Worlds... It seems to me like this past week saw a lot of posting of new game ideas and settings for them. I (checking back) started reading, then about halfway through skimmed down to 'others comments'. Saw the Demi-urge (sp) definition discussion going and said to myself "Lets check back on this when I have time to do it justice" Which I still haven't done to well...
 (I love the planets tie-in...) (card mechanics....this could work with Tarot decks...a game around them is one of my interests)

So, after all that, its the busy-ness of the site
Logged

Bob McNamee
Indie-netgaming- Out of the ordinary on-line gaming!
M. J. Young
Member

Posts: 2198


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2002, 08:09:59 PM »

This may seem strange; I'm always eager to help someone design a game, but I don't read most of the threads on the Game Design forum. The reason for this is simple: too many of them begin with either a very long explanation of a game or a link to a complete draft of a game, and attempt to discuss the beast in its entirety. I have family waiting impatiently for me to finish the forums and spend time with them; I don't have time to learn twelve games a week (or the mental accuity to remember them in detail from one day to the next). Thus I will almost always read a thread which doesn't mention a particular game, because these almost always are focused on very narrow problems; I will almost never look at a thread whose title suggests that it's a very general discussion of the latest draft of something. I'll read a game-specific thread if there's reason to think it is very narrowly focused and I can contribute to it without learning the entire game.

I apologize for this; it may even prove to be unfair, as I have been contemplating asking the forum for feedback on a new game (something that's been in the works for a while, intended as an introductory game for people who don't know anything about rpg's) so I would be hoping others would do what I do not. But I only have so much time, and I can't read everything every day.

--M. J. Young
Logged

Tim C Koppang
Member

Posts: 356


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2002, 08:40:43 PM »

I'd tend to agree with M. J. Young.  Speaking from expirience (of which I only have some) I've received much more feedback when I presented only a small portion of the game I'm working on.  Then, when I feel like I've gotton some solid feedback, I move on to another subject.  It's just easier to digest a game, and to get interested in one, if it's presented in small nugets.
Logged

hardcoremoose
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 669


WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2002, 11:00:07 PM »

Hey there,

I guess I count as a member of the "old guard", so here's my rambly, long-winded response.

My reading habits are strictly based on interest.  I read what sounds interesting to me.  Generally that means topic headings have to grab me, but sometimes I afford certain other people an automatic look based on name recognition alone.  

Posting to a topic is a totally different thing.  I only post to threads when I have something valuable to add (and sometimes, when an idea really strikes me, to heap praise at someone's feet, although this is pretty rare).  This has always been my policy regarding posting; I'm not a systems monkey, so that sometimes leaves me with precious little to say.

I think it's worth mentioning that the problem Matt is having is one I noticed and dealt with a long time ago.  I used to post a lot more than I do now (I do have over 500 posts to my name), but that was back when I was actively posting all of my new game designs to The Forge community for feedback.  The problem with that was that I kept getting the same responses from the same people* (mostly Forge stalwarts like Mike and Ralph, who could be counted on to respond to just about everything - honestly, I don't know how they do it).  My solution was to build relationships with these people, court their opinions through private discourse, and reveal my game designs to the online community only when they were further along in development.

* Herein lies another problem I had, which Matt and many others do not suffer from (but I'm almost certain many others do): I was designing and posting games purely for the "quick fix" I got from seeing people's responses.  Almost as soon as the threads died, so did the games.  Once I recognized my own behavior, I resolved not to post further about my own designs, at least not until I was ready to get down to brass tacks and design something real.  That hasn't really solved any problems for my close friends, who still get to hear about every crazy idea I have, but I do think it's better to languish in this way outside the court of public opinion.

- Scott

P.S.  Lumpley and Bankuei: I haven't forgotten about Lapdogs or Draconic, and someday I'll finish them.
Logged
Le Joueur
Member

Posts: 1367


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2002, 12:03:11 AM »

Where have I been?  I've been really busy.

I had a longer response, but I hit ctrl-R when I wanted shift-R, so all you get is the short form.  Why don't I post on something?
    It's already been said.

    It's not in my realm of expertise.[/list:u]I usually wait a few hours before posting on a new thread and often what I would have said gets said.  If I see a glaring omission, I'll jump in, otherwise....

    I don't do analyses.  I'll comment if I see a game with an idea that treads ground I've gone over, but otherwise....

    And then there's this:

Quote from: Pale Fire
For some reason posting a long detailed analysis of something usually is exactly what kills it a thread.

I must be doing something wrong.

But I guess most of the problem is in me. I must be doing something wrong to be killing off my threads even when I wish the discussion to continue.

I used to think the same way.  Turns out I was wrong.  When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right.  You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.

You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

The big problem is if you want discussion, you got to leave something to question.  If you solve it, who's going to respond?  Do you want your peers to attack everything you write?

Silence is golden (and unfortunately the sound of ringing endorsement is the same as studied indifference: silence).  You just gotta imagine that no response means that they're out there, just clapping.

I had more, but I gotta sleep.

Fang Langford
Logged

Fang Langford is the creator of Scattershot presents: Universe 6 - The World of the Modern Fantastic.  Please stop by and help!
Christoffer Lernö
Member

Posts: 822


« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2002, 01:20:00 AM »

Quote
I used to think the same way. Turns out I was wrong. When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right. You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.
You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

Well you've told me the same thing in private Fang. However, I'm not sure I can fully subscribe to that. For some that is certainly the case, but for others...

Well I have been politely suggested that people occasionally stop posting to my threads because they get fed up with my unfinished ideas and get too disgusted to keep on reading and replying.

So I can't say that I sit safe and believe that just because people don't reply it's because they have nothing to add. Sometimes you have a topic which piles up a few views, like 20 or so. Like this old one... notice how I beg for a at least a teenie wheenie feedback it sounds interesting or not. How does one interpret the silence then? ;) Probably that people fell asleep before they finished reading it.
Logged

formerly Pale Fire
[Yggdrasil (in progress) | The Evil (v1.2)]
Ranked #1005 in meaningful posts
Indie-Netgaming member
Le Joueur
Member

Posts: 1367


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2002, 06:31:04 AM »

Quote from: Pale Fire
Quote from: Le Joueur
I used to think the same way. Turns out I was wrong. When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right. You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.

You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

Well, it has been politely suggested that people occasionally stop posting to my threads because they get fed up with my unfinished ideas and get too disgusted to keep on reading and replying.

So I can't say that I sit safe and believe that just because people don't reply it's because they have nothing to add. ...Notice how I beg for at least teeny-weenie feedback it sounds interesting or not. How does one interpret the silence then? ;) Probably that people fell asleep before they finished reading it.

Hey, if you have to be an extremist, you can look at it as though the glass is half empty...or half full (everyone is pleased and satisfied with your answer).  Be a pessimist if you like, but I ask you...

Why do you post?

Is it vanity?  Is it insecurity?  Boredom?  Loneliness?  For "a quick fix?"

Me, I post to share my thinking; I offer different perspectives when I can.  I post a lot about Scattershot because people have practically begged for 'that game you keep mentioning.'  I don't really need help with it, I get all the ideas I need just 'lurking.'  That makes it look 'done' and people wonder why I don't just post it; it still remains 'unwritten.'  This puts me in an awkward position.  I have all this experience working with the philosophies involved with creating a game and a singular example of how I've done it.  I am engaged in helping people over the 'bumps' I've encountered and that results in citing a game never published.  (This tends to give a lot of what I offer an 'ivory tower' sound to it, purely coincidentally.)  So I had to 'get it out there.'  Now people think I'm pandering or pimping.

I'm sure that some have privately indicated that they don't like "unfinished ideas;" I can assure you that it is mostly out of frustration over not seeing a complete product.  This is the 'just do it' mentality.  Furthermore, I'm sure that after a certain point it starts sounding like frustration.  That still doesn't hide the fact that most seem receptive to your ideas, if somewhat quietly.  If you only listen to people riled up enough by what you write to get off their butts and PM you, you'd better stop now because you'll never get the accolades you seek.  Is that why you post?  Seeking glory?  (I thought not.)

As far as this article goes, sure you start out begging (note: nobody likes, or responds favorably to, begging), but you don't produce anything.  It's just lists, what is one supposed to say to that?  Nobody on the internet has time for 'thumbs up'/'thumbs down' on every sketch of an idea, the very fact that no one complained is high praise in my book.  I've been all the way up and down the 'rpg designer' sources; just posting a list of stuff with no mechanics always draws the blank response from everyone except those with a personal interest in the project.  (Ever notice I don't do it?)

A problem you might be suffering is 'seeing the implications.'  You type up a fragment of your system, but to you it looks darn near complete.  To everyone else, it doesn't make any sense.  They can't see what you see (that you didn't type).  Take Scattershot for example, as far as the mechanics go (in my eyes) that's it.  All of it.  Is it taken as so?  Nope, 'cuz I see things that other people don't.  So I put out "Emergent Techniques" as soon as I see something I've missed about 'how to use' the Scattershot Mechanix.  People also ask for examples, I put up a whole webzine devoted to providing examples of everything.  And I'm still not there...

Listen I hear ya.

As far as I can tell, we're in the same boat.  People aren't going to give you the feedback you seem to want until you get them actually playing your game.  So I have to join the 'just do it' crowd and suggest you just finish a draft and get people playing it.  If your playtesters have nothing to say, then you'll have something to complain about.  Otherwise be patient.  I know I am.

As for the signal to noise ratio around here, it's just a phase.  They come and go.  For a while there was lots of pointless discussion with few games up.  Now is the reverse.  Don't worry, as long as everyone posts more on other people's games as their own, we'll catch up.  (It'll just take a coupla a months - and during the holidays too, sheesh.)

Fang Langford

p. s. I'm not an extremist, the glass is half-and-half.
Logged

Fang Langford is the creator of Scattershot presents: Universe 6 - The World of the Modern Fantastic.  Please stop by and help!
Seth L. Blumberg
Member

Posts: 303


« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2002, 08:37:47 AM »

I'm hardly "old guard," but I used to read the Indie Game Design forum, and post comments on occasion. I've mostly stopped. Damn thing's just too noisy. Too many people posting; I can't read every thread, and there's no way to tell which threads I'll find the most interesting, so I don't read it at all.

The same thing has nearly happened to RPG Theory. If it does, I'll probably stop visiting the Forge at all.

I originally liked the Forge because it was small enough that I could be interested in every conversation--almost like a mailing list, but with better organization. It no longer has that feeling.
Logged

the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue
Matt Snyder
Member

Posts: 1380


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2002, 09:08:31 AM »

Quote from: Seth L. Blumberg
I'm hardly "old guard," but I used to read the Indie Game Design forum, and post comments on occasion. I've mostly stopped. Damn thing's just too noisy. Too many people posting; I can't read every thread, and there's no way to tell which threads I'll find the most interesting, so I don't read it at all.

The same thing has nearly happened to RPG Theory. If it does, I'll probably stop visiting the Forge at all.

I originally liked the Forge because it was small enough that I could be interested in every conversation--almost like a mailing list, but with better organization. It no longer has that feeling.


Ok, if this post isn't sending out LOUD warnings to folks, I don't know what else to say.

This is precisely what I feared is might be happening. I'm not 100% that it's that bad just yet, but I started this post in hopes of addressing just this issue before it might be too late.

Here's my take on what the problem is, and I think everyone sees it as obvious. Simply put, the Forge got too big for its britches.

Now, that's bound to happen to a site with something worth checking out. The trick is 1) whether the site CAN adapt and still be worthwhile and 2) whether the site WANTS to adapt to still be worthwhile.

Right now, I don't think the people who made the Forge what is (and I don't mean just Clinton and Ron, I mean lots of folks, myself included, he said humbly), I don't think those folks really, deep down want to adapt and/or keep the site thriving to the level it was, say, last spring or winter.

It's too much work, we're too busy, all the ideas are mediocre or have been there, done that. I don't want to keep saying the same things over and over. Whatever. It's becoming clear to me that the value of the Forge is diminishing. At least it is for me, and apparently is for a couple other folks like some of those who've posted above.

Now, that may mean the site just becomes something else. That's ok. RPG.net has changed dramatically in its mission over the years. It's still there, going strong and doing cool stuff.

Problem is, the direction the Forge seems to be headed in right now just doesn't reward me like it used to. That's what I'm lamenting. It was a vibrant community. I can't stress that word enough: COMMUNITY. It's absolutely important to recognize that the Forge was not just a "networking medium." So are telephone routers and singles bars. So what. The Forge was (is?) a fantastic COMMUNITY of intrepid, independent and innovative gamers and game designers. That community is disolving, it seems to me. And I think that's a damn shame.

Let me say, it's a community that is worthwhile. Hell, it's a community that got shit done. Dust Devils wouldn't exist without it. For everyone that was at GenCon, weren't you fucking inspired by the Forge? It was awesome. Now, I bet it'll happen again -- a booth like that. But will it be as vibrant? It seems to me that the community that made that event happen is much more disjointed now. It just don't think we can make that kind of energy sustainable without a continued community.
Logged

Matt Snyder
www.chimera.info

"The future ain't what it used to be."
--Yogi Berra
Paul Czege
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 2341


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2002, 09:47:40 AM »

Hey Matt,

The short answer, I think, is that the Forge needs to evolve. There was a time when I could comfortably keep up with every active thread in the Forums. And it was my habit to do so. But, over the course of a number of months, I found my time investment was mushrooming like crazy. I have to believe there's been a 300% increase in the rate of thread creation since then.

You know how seven or eight people sitting around a living room is about the maximum number of partygoers who can have a collective conversation that doesn't fragment into little side discussions? I'm doubtful that there's any way for the Forge to re-pace and re-size itself to what it was when an 'old guard' could have one collective conversation about design coherence and actual play. I think those days are gone. The 'misfit games' threads a few months ago were my painful primal scream of awakening to this realization.

And so it seems to me that what the Forge needs to do is evolve. No longer can we be the internet's best resource for design feedback and playtesting for anyone and everyone who brings a game design to the site. The amount of time and energy required to meet the demand would necessitate a collective conversation among more individuals than could possibly have such a collective conversation. What we can do, however, is have a coherent conversation at a higher level. We can advise and consult with designers on how to pursue and obtain playtesting and design feedback from other sources. We can advise and consult with designers on how to provoke meaningful feedback from playtesters. And we can advise and consult with designers on how to interpret and evaluate playtest efforts and design feedback received from others. It seems to me that should the Forge forums remain a force of significance, it will be with threads entitled:  Are these questions going to return the kind of playtest feedback I need?,  How do I create interest in my game?, How do I get someone interested in reviewing my game on RPG.net?, How do I know when to stop tweaking my mechanics?, and Which of these design suggestions that I've received should I pay attention to?

Paul
Logged

My Life with Master knows codependence.
And if you're doing anything with your Acts of Evil ashcan license, of course I'm curious and would love to hear about your plans
Jonathan Walton
Member

Posts: 1309


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2002, 09:48:54 AM »

Quote from: Matt Snyder
Ok, if this post isn't sending out LOUD warnings to folks, I don't know what else to say.


Amen.

I just joined the Forge a month ago, but already I can tell a difference between the recent forums and what you get from diving in the archives.  However, though this is probably just a reflection of how my perspective differs from the old timers', I don't think the "problem" is quite what you guys are making it out to be.

Quote
It's too much work, we're too busy, all the ideas are mediocre or have been there, done that. I don't want to keep saying the same things over and over. Whatever. It's becoming clear to me that the value of the Forge is diminishing. At least it is for me, and apparently is for a couple other folks like some of those who've posted above.


I think the key point here is FOR WHOM is the value of the Forge diminishing?  Obviously, a lot of the "innovative" ideas that get posted nowadays are old hat to long-timers.  You've seen them before.  You've discussed them before.  You don't really have anything else to say on the subject.  However, for many of us "newbies," this may be the first time we encounter such things, and they are still worth discussing.  Still, there is a tendency for old timers to crack down on this with comments like "well, here's a list of 5 other games, some of which were never finished or published, that do the exact same thing."

So, what's happening is that the Forge is becoming less useful for EVERYONE, just because people expect/want different things from the Forge and this interaction is somewhat unhealthy.  Newbies want to find people who are interested in helping them explore their "original" ideas, and old timers are looking for the old sense of community and for experienced help with their own projects.

However, I would be willing to bet that the sense of "community" the Forge has didn't spring up overnight.  It grew out of a whole series of interactions.  I'm beginning to feel a sense of community with some of the other people that I've really put an effort into working with in the past month (willows, deadpanbob, etc.), but that's going to take a while to really blossom into a new "community" among the newer arrivals.

I'm also willing to bet that you guys didn't start out saying "oh, we've seen this before."  That is only a reflection of the depth of experience you have all gained by participating in this community.  Once the newer arrivals have that much info under their belts, they'll begin doing the same thing.

Quote
Problem is, the direction the Forge seems to be headed in right now just doesn't reward me like it used to. That's what I'm lamenting. It was a vibrant community.


I think what you're lamenting is the loss of the old sense of community.  That doesn't mean that the Forge can no longer be a community, just that it must become a different community than it was before.  And I don't think there's anything that anyone can do to stop it, aside from limiting who can be a member (and I don't think Clinton & Ron have any intentions of doing that).  What may be important is to try to figure out what sort of community we want the Forge to be and how we can go about making that happen.

That's a much more positive response than lamenting the change or trying to keep it from happening.

Later.
Jonathan
Logged

ethan_greer
Member

Posts: 869


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2002, 09:59:01 AM »

The existence of this thread pisses me off.  Here's why:

From what I see, we have a few older members complaining because of people like me.  As a newbie, after seeing a thread which basically says "all these newbies are ruining the Forge" why should I even bother to spend any more time here?  Too many posts on the boards??? It's A FORUM, PEOPLE!  Read what you want, post what you will, and ignore the rest.  That's how it works.  That's how it SHOULD work.

There's such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophesy, guys.  Keep up with this conversation and you'll probably get your wish, because newer members will take one look and not bother to come back.

Oh, and before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not taking this thread as a personal attack because I'm a newer member.  And I personally have no intentions of leaving the Forge.  I'm just VERY angry at what I see as basically undermining the makings of A Good Thing (tm), namely, a LARGE community of polite, articulate gamers.  How could that POSSIBLY be a bad thing??????

I cannot continue to express with any semblance of politeness how much this thread has disgusted me, so I'll stop here.
Logged
Paul Czege
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 2341


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2002, 10:25:38 AM »

Hey,

I've received a suggestion that I clarify what I meant by the phrase "coherent conversation" as it was used metaphorically throughout the latter half of my post. Please interpret my usage of "have a coherent conversation" subsequent to the party analogy to mean "be engaged coherently and collectively in the activity as the primary expression of our shared sense of purpose."

Paul
Logged

My Life with Master knows codependence.
And if you're doing anything with your Acts of Evil ashcan license, of course I'm curious and would love to hear about your plans
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Oxygen design by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!