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Started by Ron Edwards, November 11, 2002, 05:05:21 PM
Quote from: Ron Edwards1) What game design elements facilitate successful Illusionist play?
Quote from: Ron EdwardsWhen, however, the social contract (which may well never have been expressed and everyone just "knows" or more accurately hopes that it's intact) is broken regarding this issue, then we're into railroading. This can occur because *no* degree of GM-takeover of character decision-making is acceptable to one or more players (i.e. there's a disgruntled Narrativist or Gamist in the group), and then it shows up, or because the *degree* of doing so is being stretched past a tolerance level (i.e. they're all Illusionists except with different degrees of "how to do it").
Quote from: Ron EdwardsPerhaps you missed my #3 "further discussion" point in your hurry to nail a phrase that caught your eye. As you can see, I acknowledge that this issue is debatable.
QuoteGiven my current thinking about your Gamist proposal, I would maintain that the GM-decisions about "story" are basically scene framing from a Gamist standpoint, relative to the "money shot" scenes of Gamist "test" or competition*, and not Illusionist at all. "Yeah, get us there," would be the player response.
QuoteAs soon as someone gets players interested, those players are going to start investigating the game. At least one of them is going to encounter someone who says, "Isn't that the game that is entirely illusionism, where the referee runs the whole thing but the game makes the players feel like they're involved?" Bang! The entire game collapses at that instant, because illusionism requires as part of its premise that the players are unaware it is happening
QuoteIllusionism is when the characters leave the bar, and end up in the mountains killing kobolds, regardless.
QuoteIn every situation in which I advocate illusionism, I emphasize that you can't do it all the time; you can only do it sparingly, judiciously. If it is discovered that your games are entirely a matter of you creating the story and making the players feel as if they contributed when they really had no control of events whatsoever, the game ends, often with bad feelings on the part of the players.
Quote2) What plain-language terms can facilitate hashing out these issues for real prior to play? (i.e., to bypass meaningless discussion of "the story's the thing" or similar)