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Author Topic: Defensive Grappling.  (Read 9657 times)
Bob Richter
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Posts: 324


« on: December 14, 2002, 02:17:36 AM »

Anyone else ever notice how crazy this is?

I toss a 2-die probing attack.

My opponent tosses a 10-die defensive grapple.

He wins, of course, and puts me down hard, bruising me badly.

Ow. That sucked.
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So ye wanna go earnin' yer keep with yer sword, and ye think that it can't be too hard...
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2002, 02:24:47 AM »

Better think twice about those 2-die probing attacks, then...

::grins wickedly::

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Mokkurkalfe
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Posts: 340


« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2002, 02:36:59 AM »

Eactly. Many of the maneuvers are supposed to be used when you can get a massive margin of success, and a 2-dice attack in the beginning of a round is an excellent opportunity.
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Joakim (with a k!) Israelsson
Aaron
Member

Posts: 102


« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2002, 03:37:43 AM »

Think about it this way.  What is the point of a probing attack.?  check out your opponents defenses, trick them into attacking you etc.   Now within the context of the rules I would say that that sounds like an aggresive stance, makes your opponent think your going to attack, then you throw a white die hanging back. Remember a charge is just an aggresive stance that last an entire round. If your opponent falls for it you can opt not to defend but attack right back with a block and strike or maybe stealing the init and going first.  I havent seen anything anywhere that says just cause you throw the white init die you can't opt not to defend but attack.
Once CP die are thrown all bets are off...it's life or death now buddy..No time for weak, read 2 dice, attacks i wanna survive this fight and the way to do that is to kill/maim/beat you!
That's one of the things I love about this game.  Seeing the players screw their faces when the hard life and death decisions are on the line.  The sigh of relief when they survive or the look of anguish when its hit the fan.  It's moments like these that make roleplaying worth while.  My compliments to all involved in producing this game and I hope everyone else out there is enjoying this as much as my players and myself..(sorry that turned into a bit of a rant but what can I say....This game rocks..
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2002, 01:38:13 PM »

Aaron-

You hit it (for me) on the head exactly.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Bob Richter
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Posts: 324


« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2002, 03:30:35 PM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
Better think twice about those 2-die probing attacks, then...

::grins wickedly::

Jake


My problem is: Defensive Grappling amounts to a combination of attack and defense (with a very good ATN/DTN) THAT THERE IS NO DEFENSE AGAINST.

You can't defend against a Defensive Grapple. So you go anything less than all-out (since maybe you want a few dice left for a defense.) He goes all-out. (since this IS his defense) You go flying or get smashed.

I rather thought unarmed folks were supposed to be at a DISadvantage against folks with swords.
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So ye wanna go earnin' yer keep with yer sword, and ye think that it can't be too hard...
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2002, 08:49:29 PM »

You are remembering to factor in the range disadvantages and the risks of screwing your grapple up, right?

Jake
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MrGeneHa
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Posts: 52


« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2002, 08:26:38 AM »

About Defensive Grappling and range penalties:

"When the shorter weapon is out of range this penalty only applies to attacks" (p 78).  It definitely seems that Defensive Grapples should be an exception to this rule of thumb!
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Aaron
Member

Posts: 102


« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2002, 07:22:13 PM »

Yeah the weapon length doesn't help against grappling...But I still think it comes down to the initial 2 dice attack..If you worried about defence then pass initiative to your opponent and make him come to you.. If your going to attack put 6-7+ dice into it..Lets see how eager your grappler is to spend the 1-2 activation cost then put a couple of more dice into his parry than you've attacked with..Doesn't leave him much..Even if he succeeds its only strength plus one, I dont recall seeing that the extra success means extra damage....But maybe I've got that one wrong..Anyone want to clarify?
Even if the throw suceeds the grappler wont have enough dice left to take advantage so you just stand up..
If you attack anyone with two dice I think your asking for trouble.  Even if its not a defensive grapple that hits you its and expulsion or maybe even forgoing defensive and attacking right back..
I know I would and I'd bet Conan would goin me!!
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2002, 02:23:31 AM »

Quote from: Aaron
Yeah the weapon length doesn't help against grappling...But I still think it comes down to the initial 2 dice attack..If you worried about defence then pass initiative to your opponent and make him come to you.. If your going to attack put 6-7+ dice into it..Lets see how eager your grappler is to spend the 1-2 activation cost then put a couple of more dice into his parry than you've attacked with..Doesn't leave him much..Even if he succeeds its only strength plus one, I dont recall seeing that the extra success means extra damage....But maybe I've got that one wrong..Anyone want to clarify?
Even if the throw suceeds the grappler wont have enough dice left to take advantage so you just stand up..
If you attack anyone with two dice I think your asking for trouble.  Even if its not a defensive grapple that hits you its and expulsion or maybe even forgoing defensive and attacking right back..
I know I would and I'd bet Conan would goin me!!


Each success does indeed add to the damage of the attack.

Otherwise, damage would be surprisingly nonvariable in tRoS.

The two-die attack was a possible setup for a feint, in an attempt to make him overcommit a defense, while keeping a sizeable defensive reserve. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a defense against Defensive Grappling.

Jake: there's a penalty for Reach in Defensive Grappling? Somehow the rules didn't quite make that clear to me. Doubt it would have mattered. 8 to 2 is still a pretty sick margin.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2002, 10:27:28 AM »

Um...get back to you on that. My gut instinct is, "there should be."

Jake
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Brian Leybourne
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Posts: 1793


« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2002, 11:18:48 AM »

I certainly always play with a range penalty for defensive grappling. After all, what you're really doing is launching an attack as your defense, right?

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
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Lyrax
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Posts: 268


« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2002, 05:04:23 PM »

2-die "probing" attacks are lame in the game just as they are in real life.  If you punch a brawler that lamely, chances are that he'll break your arm.  If you strike a swordfighter with a sword that badly, he may not even bother to block it.

If I were fighting an unarmed man with a sword IRL, I would take lots of strong, fast cuts and give him no room to close in.
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Lance Meibos
Insanity takes it's toll.  Please have exact change ready.

Get him quick!  He's still got 42 hit points left!
Aaron
Member

Posts: 102


« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2002, 10:46:15 PM »

[quote="Bob Richter
Each success does indeed add to the damage of the attack.

Otherwise, damage would be surprisingly nonvariable in tRoS.

[/quote]

I know the extra success do normally add to the damage, I was refering to the defensive grapple specifically.  As per a normal parry once you have at least one more success than the attacker the extra success do nothing.  I would have assumed that the defensive grapple and put down would be along the same lines.
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Lance D. Allen
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Posts: 1962


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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2002, 10:38:45 AM »

Hm. I was curious about why the feinting guy didn't just follow through with the feint, then I realized that defensive grapple to throw acts as a defense as well as allowing the defender to damage their opponent... This strikes me as slightly wrong.

Perhaps a few things added would balance it out so it seems a bit more realistic..

~ The range penalty applied to defensive grappling, and

~If the defender fails to defend successfully (ie, less successes than the attacker) against an armed opponent, their successes do not count toward damage reduction. That way, it's an all or nothing gamble. Basically, if I, as defender, fail to trap, throw or pin you, then I will get nailed full force with your weapon.

What the addition of those two would do in the aforementioned situation.. I am assuming that they were both max CP of 10. I am also assuming that the attacker is using cut and thrust, which has no additional cost to feinting, so it's only the doubled cost to add dice.

Attacker: I'm attacking for X zone with 2 dice.

Defender: I'm defending, all 10 dice, with a defensive grapple to throw.

Seneschal: don't forget the two-die range penalty.

Defender: Crap. All 8 dice, then.

Attacker: Declaring a feint-and-thrust, throwing the rest of my 8 dice in, so that's an additional 4 dice, for a thrust to the head with 6 dice.

Seneschal: Okay, defending with 8, attacking with 6.. Throw dice.

Now, if the defender wins, the attacker is put down, but not likely nearly as hard as if he'd not followed through with the feint. If the attacker wins, then the defender is hit with all of the attacker's successes, with none of his counting to reduce damage.. Something for the defender to think about when committing to a defensive grapple against a deceptively weak attack.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
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