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Started by Emily Care, December 20, 2002, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: Ron EdwardsHello,It doesn't matter what any one person thinks "immersion" is. Immersion has shown itself, over and over, to be a synonym for whatever the speaker values during role-playing. It is, at most, being "into it." And what constitutes "into it" differs very, very widely.
Quote from: AlanMost of us can agree we like sugar, but to argue that only one kind of donut delivers the experience is to confuse the agent with the sensation.
Quote from: Jack Spencer JrOr can we get away with simply agree that there is a state we can call "immersion" were the participants lose themselves completely in the activity they are partaking in? (snipped)...I am saying this to look at how a group can be engrossed or immersed in an activity, regardless of the activity, and how that engrossment can be disturbed. I hestitate to say broken. Disturbed seems like a better choice of words. Is this too far off base?
Quote from: SidhainWhat I expect from "immersion" is being the character--feeling as the character, and thinking as the character (when I'm a player at least) my goal is to enjoy the being I've created to in part think as much like them as possible and play upon that as the game progresses.
Quote from: SidhainNow--that is what immersion is to me --feeling-- and --being--- Anything else outside of that is game concerns.
Quote from: M. J. YoungGenerally I just immerse in a character because choose to do so. I have created a person in whom I am intensely interested, and I want to understand who they are and how they interact with others and with the imagined world around them. Maybe it's because I'm rather introverted--I can completely fascinate myself with no outside help. It's a bit like interactive daydreaming, really--and I was always able to become immersed in my daydreams; just ask my elementary school teachers.
Quote from: SidhainI recently played LOTR, and a friend whose not normally a GM ran it--but he is familiar with the world. His descriptions, pacing, everything brought Middle Earth to life--it only failed when he tried combat, because the mechanics unfamiliarity, and the combat descriptions were more -gamer- concerns and not Middle Earth citizen concerns. It was a good game all told for the experience--with a few fixable flaws to the immersion.
Quote from: SidhainIts why I dislike games which brake the tension, the "scene" the "feel" of the moment with mechanics that require work and effort to make use of if they pull me out of the characters head to mess with some fiddly bit (whether rule, or physical object) then the game is as fault for hurting my experience--some games work fine by making these bits as unobtrusive as possible but some also try and make them a /focus/ of the game--hence why Deadlands doesn't work for me--it made the fiddly bit the focus, on the other hand Saga which also used cards worked for me because its fiddly bit was not the focus--it was just a resolution mechanic.
Quote from: SidhainNo matter the game if two players are talking about a TV show they saw last night--immersion is damaged. If on the other hand they are chattering about things their characters concerns immersion is supported, and while you can encourage this you cannot create rules to enforce it---forced behaviours create a strain, and tension and can be just as damaging to the immersion as out of character conversations.
Quote from: M.J. YoungUnlike Sidhain, I find that game mechanics interruptions do not throw me. I theorize: I am a deep and detailed thinker, and that means I'm not usually quick. I don't like fast-paced games. [A] referee who demands a quick answer or action or I lose my opportunity loses me as a player. If he goes into the book and withdraws from play* it gives me the opportunity I so greatly desire to think several steps ahead, to visualize the full layout of the situation and determine as many of the options as I can, and possibly to formulate a plan that's going to turn the odds in my favor.*It is quite possible for a capable referee to go to the books and hunt down a rule without disrupting the flow of play; I've done it for years. If you've got five players, and one of them wants to do something for which you have to check the rules, it's not generally too difficult to find out what the other four want to do and to adjudicate the results while you're flipping pages in search of the section you need. But it's one of those little things you just don't realize you can do until someone suggests it and you try it, and then, duh, why didn't I do this before?
Quote from: Emily CareElements that Detract from M.J.'s Experience of Immersion[*]Fast paced games.[*]Short time period for deciding on in-character actions.[/list:u]
Quote from: M.J. YoungI'm actually pretty good at compiling vast lists of possible solutions, and then paring them down by filters.... If you start rushing me to make decisions, I have to take out that intermediate step; I don't have time to compile the options, pass them through the character filter, and determine what he would do. I'm now working far more on the basis of what I would do. I've been forced out of character, the game has been reduced to Risk, and I am no longer immersed.
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergWhen that is happening, I am much more effective as as actor portraying my character; but that is not my goal
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergMy experience of "immersion" is not much like Sidhain's. I don't think I've ever achieved a sense of "thinking like the character" in the same way that he describes. If I did, I obviously didn't enjoy it, because it's not even something I try to do. Instead, when I'm playing a game (using "playing" in opposition to "GMing" for the moment), I look for some of the same qualities that I enjoy in genre fantasy, namely, detailed world-building and well-realized characters. I want to get a sense that the setting and situation, and the other players' characters, have some sort of Platonic existence unconfined to material reality.
Quote from: In response to my comments, Emily CareInternalProcesses-- thoughts and decisions made in the mind, or ways these come about, that allow one to immerse, ie M.J.'s "filters"
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergTerminological quibble: I think using "Exploration" there is a mistake, unless you are proposing to amend Ron's SSSCC taxonomy.
QuoteLocus Pronunciation Key (lks) n. pl. lo·ci (-s, -k, -k) 1.A locality; a place. 2.A center or focus of great activity or intense concentration: "the cunning exploitation of loci of power; the insulation from normal American society" (Clifton Fadiman). 3.Mathematics. The set or configuration of all points whose coordinates satisfy a single equation or one or more algebraic conditions.
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergOther than that, I think you have a good framework for discussing the various kinds of imaginative engagement. (The breadth of the subject goes well beyond anything I've ever labeled as "immersion," so I feel compelled to refer to it by a different name.)
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergLet me see whether I understand correctly. You are saying, based on my description, that I experience engagement mostly through Sensations and Performance, that (again, for me) it is contingent on World and Metagame issues, and that I am mostly engaged with the World?
Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergMy experience of "immersion" is not much like Sidhain's. I don't think I've ever achieved a sense of "thinking like the character" in the same way that he describes. If I did, I obviously didn't enjoy it, because it's not even something I try to do.