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Author Topic: Clarification of half-swording  (Read 8689 times)
svenlein
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Posts: 114


« on: January 20, 2003, 03:05:57 PM »

Are these calculations correct?
All examples are used 2 handed (half-sworded for the swords) with damage calculated against heavy armor.

weapon.......hands.length..Range.....ATN....DTN........dam
bastard.......2..........48.........s/m......5........6..........ST+3 (or ST+5?)
dopple.........2.........72.........l...........6.........6.........+2
estoc...........2.........48.........s/m......5.........6.........+3 (or ST+5?)
great...........2.........55.........s/m......5.........6.........+3 (or ST+4)
long.............2.........48.........s/m......5.........6.........+3 (or ST+4)
long spear....2.........90.........l/v........7.........8.........+2
spear...........2.........72.........long......6.........7.........+2
short spear...2.........42.........med......7.........7.........+2

If so why is short spear used with 2 hands so much worse than a bastard sword used half-sworded against heavy armor?

Scott
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Shadeling
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2003, 09:49:06 AM »

Quote from: svenlein
Are these calculations correct?

If so why is short spear used with 2 hands so much worse than a bastard sword used half-sworded against heavy armor?

Scott


Maybe because the Bastard is an anti armor weapon, and its weight is fairly distributed along the weapon.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2003, 11:11:19 AM »

The calculations are correct, and yes, the damage in particular for the half-sword seems a bit excessive. Why?

Mostly because I wanted a blanket rule for half-swording instead of the more "realistic" individual modifiers for each weapon.

Remember, also, that the spear has a certain important advantage--even the short spear is longer than the bastard-half-sword.

The bastard sword is also completely steel, and the strike is make with the hands closer to the actual striking portion. Much of damage isn't power, but is potential and control. The bastard sword in a half-sword situation has significantly more control for the purpose of getting around armor and finding the chinks, or for punching through.

Hope that helps. And, as always, we're open to suggestions.

Jake
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svenlein
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Posts: 114


« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2003, 04:44:51 AM »

a half sword bastard sword can be used a medium distance just like a short spear.

are the characteristics of half-swording different at medium vs short range?
Maybe at short it's ATN:5 DTN:6 Dam:+3
but a medium it's ATN:7 DTN:7 Dam:+3
or something in between?

could a short spear be used like a half-sworded bastard sword? so that its stats would be len:short/medium ATN:5 DTN:6 Dam:+3 (or +2 since it's not all metal, but if you had an all metal short spear it would be +3)?
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Shadeling
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2003, 07:02:08 AM »

Quote from: svenlein
a half sword bastard sword can be used a medium distance just like a short spear.

are the characteristics of half-swording different at medium vs short range?
Maybe at short it's ATN:5 DTN:6 Dam:+3
but a medium it's ATN:7 DTN:7 Dam:+3
or something in between?

could a short spear be used like a half-sworded bastard sword? so that its stats would be len:short/medium ATN:5 DTN:6 Dam:+3 (or +2 since it's not all metal, but if you had an all metal short spear it would be +3)?


There was a reason man decided to use more efficient weapons. Spears are fairly primitive. And an all metal spear would be fairly unweildy.
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Durgil
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Posts: 306


« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2003, 07:22:06 AM »

For weight purposes, I would think, that it would need to be hollow, which in turn make it quite susceptable to bending.  Maybe some light weight magical alloy would work if the GM allowed it.
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Tony Hamilton

Thalaxis
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2003, 08:28:42 AM »

Quote from: Shadeling

There was a reason man decided to use more efficient weapons. Spears are fairly primitive. And an all metal spear would be fairly unweildy.


Tell me about it. I trained with one once (a steel bo, basically), and even though the steel one was 2 feet shorter than our standard 6-foot (roku shaku) bo, it was heavy enough that though the swinging techniques were still doable (just slow), the thrusting techniques were almost not doable at all.

But for strength training, it was great. Excellent. :)

And after that, a 6-foot bo made of heavy Okinawan red oak felt like a toothpick ;)
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Bob Richter
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Posts: 324


« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2003, 08:43:00 AM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
The calculations are correct, and yes, the damage in particular for the half-sword seems a bit excessive. Why?

Mostly because I wanted a blanket rule for half-swording instead of the more "realistic" individual modifiers for each weapon.

Remember, also, that the spear has a certain important advantage--even the short spear is longer than the bastard-half-sword.

The bastard sword is also completely steel, and the strike is make with the hands closer to the actual striking portion. Much of damage isn't power, but is potential and control. The bastard sword in a half-sword situation has significantly more control for the purpose of getting around armor and finding the chinks, or for punching through.

Hope that helps. And, as always, we're open to suggestions.

Jake


I wonder if a sort of "half-spear" technique wouldn't be practical?
I know I've seen it in movies, and I *think* I've seen it in discussions of eastern spear-styles....
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2003, 08:46:39 AM »

"half-spear," although not called that, is do-able with a short spear (were talking under 4 or 5 feet long). If you want to add half-sword like advantages to a short spear then you've got a mean weapon here. Remember that the wood half will be lighter than a sword of the same length, and there's not pommel or cross (both of which are very important in half-swording actions...even the thrust, because the top of the hand pushes against the cross, allowing more force down through the blade on the thrust.

Also, and estoc is really just a metal spear meant for almost nothing but half-swording.

Jake
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Bob Richter
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2003, 08:51:10 AM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood

Also, and estoc is really just a metal spear meant for almost nothing but half-swording.

Jake


(Estoc:)Quite.

I wasn't even thinking of it that way...

Yeah...It's pretty much not doable with the longer spears (maybe the standard-length one, with considerable penalties,) now that I consider it, but it's definately workable for the Short Spear.

I used a "half-Bone" technique once because I needed a shorter-reach weapon and it seemed reasonable to choke up on the Femur I was using as a club to shorten its reach. No anti-armor bonuses, but still useful after a guy hit me with a shortsword.
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Thalaxis
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2003, 09:09:51 AM »

Sensible idea... a lot of people seem to be unaware of the fact that a shorter weapons is at times more advantagous than a longer one.
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svenlein
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Posts: 114


« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2003, 06:32:51 AM »

IMO
Comparing half-sworded estoc with a short spear held and used in a manner similar to half-swording (with right hand near the bottom of the spear and the left hand near the middle, attempting to guide the tip into the gaps between plates of armor)
IMO
Estoc has a cross-guard, this allows the right hand to provide a stronger push into the opponent.  So the estoc should have a higher damage modifier taking the cross-guard into account.  Does the cross-guard give an advantage on ATN or DTN significant enough to merit a different number for the two weapons?  (Large enough to be visible at the granularity of this system)
What other uses do the cross-guard and pommel have when half-swording against a heavily armored opponent?
IMO
The Estoc is heavier - is this an advantage or disadvantage?  If the estoc is being draw back and then driven into the opponent I would say the benefit of increased final momentum would be higher than the disadvantage of a slightly less controllable strike.  If estoc is instead used more in this manner: guided into a weak point and then driven into the body, I would guess that the increased weight would be less (or not) beneficial due to being slightly less controllable.  The estoc's cross-guard and pommel would likely improve controllability compared to a short spear.  Does the weight of the estoc have a large enough impact on ATN, DTN or Dam to deserve a different value than a short spear used as described above?
IMO
Possible ratings for a short spear used against heavy armor in the manner described above:
Range: short/medium ATN: 5-7 DTN: 6-7 Dam: 2-3
My leaning right now is:
ATN: 6 DTN: 6 Dam +2
Jake: what was your thinking for ATN/DTN=7/7 ?
I could see a person with no gauntlets having a worse ATN/DTN when using a short-spear because of having to be more cautious.  What if hockey players didn't have giant glove on to protect their hands?  There would probably be a lot more broken fingers and more cautious players.
IMO
Also I agree that a metal short spear (one might call it an estoc without a cross-guard and pommel) would not have a noticeable advantage (at the granularity of this game) over a wooden one.  (it would possibly have a durability advantage, but that?s outside the scope of this problem (and game))
IMO
I also agree that with the Dopple-hander half-sword vs normal spear comparison:
weapon.......hands.length..Range.....ATN....DTN........dam
dopple.........2.........72.........long......6.........6.........+2
spear...........2.........72.........long......6.........7.........+2
because of the cross-guard and weight
Although then I started thinking about Chinese lightweight flexible spear fighting possibly:
ATN 6 DTN 6 Dam +2 (+1 vs medium armor, +0 vs heavy armor) ? possibly even lower damage

Also in the beginning of this post I'm thinking of a short-spear with a thick hardwood shaft with the head attached with steel reinforcing strips.
Not: http://desertoasisproductions.com/primitivepoint/photos/marubo-spearpoints1.jpg

Scott
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Thalaxis
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2003, 08:11:17 AM »

Something that very few people realize is that increasing mass only increases momentum if there is no loss in speed. Since increasing the mass of the weapon doesn't come with a concomitant increase in the strength of the wielder, there is less speed associated with it as a result. So the assertion that increasing the mass increases the momentum is flawed to begin with.

The thing is that momentum goes both ways... sure the weapon doesn't want to slow down as much when it gains weight, but it also doesn't want to speed up as much.

Another thing that very few people realize is that momentum doesn't cause damage. I can give a very hard push that causes you to move backwards 5-10 feet and not do you any harm at all, or give you a short, quick, snap that leaves a painful bruise.

If I put my hand on your solar plexus and push, you move back. I pull it back 6 inches and give you a good snap, and I knock the wind out of you, and if I hit it hard enough, I break your xyphoid process and perforate your liver. (That's why they warn you not to do CPR too low on the sternum.)

So heavier is not always better.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2003, 10:40:14 AM »

Quote from: svenlein
IMO
Comparing half-sworded estoc with a short spear held and used in a manner similar to half-swording (with right hand near the bottom of the spear and the left hand near the middle, attempting to guide the tip into the gaps between plates of armor)


Yeah, do-able, I suppose. Not quite as functional, but not bad, either.

Quote
IMO
Estoc has a cross-guard, this allows the right hand to provide a stronger push into the opponent.  So the estoc should have a higher damage modifier taking the cross-guard into account.  Does the cross-guard give an advantage on ATN or DTN significant enough to merit a different number for the two weapons?  (Large enough to be visible at the granularity of this system)
What other uses do the cross-guard and pommel have when half-swording against a heavily armored opponent?


I say it does merit a lower DTN for sure. ATN I'm not so sure, at the granularity of the system.

Other uses include hooking bashing, triping, pinning, binding a sword up, winding it, and breaking the wrists. Lots of options, many of the complicated. This may be the best way to explain the improved ATN.

Quote
IMO
The Estoc is heavier - is this an advantage or disadvantage?  If the estoc is being draw back and then driven into the opponent I would say the benefit of increased final momentum would be higher than the disadvantage of a slightly less controllable strike.  If estoc is instead used more in this manner: guided into a weak point and then driven into the body, I would guess that the increased weight would be less (or not) beneficial due to being slightly less controllable.  The estoc's cross-guard and pommel would likely improve controllability compared to a short spear.  Does the weight of the estoc have a large enough impact on ATN, DTN or Dam to deserve a different value than a short spear used as described above?


I don't believe the weight makes a difference at the granularity of the system (swords, including estocs, aren't that heavy. What's more is that due to the hilt, it's heavier at the back, making the tip *more* manueverable), but the rigidity of an estoc's "blade" is much greater than that of a wooden spear. For thrusting, rigidity is everything.
Quote
Jake: what was your thinking for ATN/DTN=7/7 ?


The weapon stats were largely made in comparision to each other based on my knowledge/practice at the time with an attempt to play to the real-world advantages/disadvanges of each weapon. Perfect? Hell no. Functional? Yeah.
Quote
Also in the beginning of this post I'm thinking of a short-spear with a thick hardwood shaft with the head attached with steel reinforcing strips.
Not: http://desertoasisproductions.com/primitivepoint/photos/marubo-spearpoints1.jpg


The other thing that needs to be stated is that this is a complicated subject and one open to a degree of interperetation...we really don't know that well how those subtlties are going to affect things--we can jus hypothesise on what we do know. Therefore, you're welcome to tweak where neccessary. IYO.

Jake,
who's wiping the sweat off his forehead.
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svenlein
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2003, 12:45:47 PM »

Thalaxis if you made a maul with a head made of plastic with the same hardness as steel, but which was much less dense I don't think this would be as effective as a steel maul. I'm not certain but I think its because the maximum velocity our arms can swing an object reaches a platau after a certain amount, so once velocity levels out mass is all that can change the final energy of a swing. If I only got to wind up 1 foot before hitting something in front of me the difference might be minor since the heavy one will be much slower than the light one. But if i get to wind up fully and I'm trying to smash someone's helmet I'm going to take the heavy one. It will transfer more energy to the helmet upon contact than the slightly faster moving light maul.

That's why in my last post I said with a short thrust weight would not have an effect, but with a long thrust it would.


Scott
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