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Author Topic: Combat query: combined arms  (Read 10276 times)
Darth Tang
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« on: February 11, 2003, 10:34:07 AM »

I'm planning on using the RoS game system in the War Hammer background. Now, the group I'm with has, through bitter experience with my games, gotten well accustomed to 'combined arms' fighting, as do the NPCs.

What I mean is, the group will have missile users (usually archers) firing from the flanks while melee types close.

Now, the RoS initiative system seems largely focused on a duel-style combat with melee; how would I coordinate the above situation, initiative-wise? Figure 6-8 PCs and roughly the same number of NPCs (with RoS, gone are the days of 'the party against a tribe', and I'm glad).

Any ideas?
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2003, 10:50:48 AM »

Have every round equal one second. Archers would go first in a round (for simplicity) or in descending order according to reflex. If you want to speed it up, make every round 2 seconds, which will have archers firing twice as often. In TROS bows are a blood-curdling advantage, but they have their limitations.

Jake
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Brian Leybourne
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2003, 11:33:42 AM »

I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds, but don't know how "fanciful" those reports are) but from a playable/fun point of view, I find that 1 second rounds disadvantages archers so much nobody wants to play them - only getting off one shot every 2-3 rounds isn't much fun it seems :-) You also have the question as to when exactly in the round the archer fires.

So, I made all exchanges be one second, thus all rounds are two (Jake's second suggestion). This means that a) you know when in a round the archer fires (at the end of the relevant exchange, is my rule) and b) they can fire twice as fast - on average every 1.5 rounds or so (or sometimes even once a round with a not fully refreshed MP)

It works pretty well.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
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RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
prophet118
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2003, 11:36:44 AM »

according to Conquest, those stats would be accurate Brian...
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Brian Leybourne
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2003, 12:25:52 PM »

Those are some scary-ass stats then :-)
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Brian Leybourne
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RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Shadeling
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2003, 12:32:46 PM »

Quote from: Brian Leybourne
I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds, but don't know how "fanciful" those reports are) but from a playable/fun point of view, I find that 1 second rounds disadvantages archers so much nobody wants to play them - only getting off one shot every 2-3 rounds isn't much fun it seems :-) You also have the question as to when exactly in the round the archer fires.

So, I made all exchanges be one second, thus all rounds are two (Jake's second suggestion). This means that a) you know when in a round the archer fires (at the end of the relevant exchange, is my rule) and b) they can fire twice as fast - on average every 1.5 rounds or so (or sometimes even once a round with a not fully refreshed MP)

It works pretty well.

Brian.


That is a little fanciful.

This is from http://www.archers.org/longbow.htm

Quote
The average English Military Archer could fire 12 to 15 arrows per minute and hit a man-sized target at a minimum of 200 yards. The maximum range was about 400 yards with flight arrows. An archer could not even consider himself skilled at his art if he could not shoot 10 arrows a minute!
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prophet118
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2003, 01:27:26 PM »

hmm shadeling, you call what brian posted fanciful....oddly, you posted something that showed brian was being more realistic than you... he posted 5 shafts in a target in 50 seconds, you posted 10 arrows, in 1 minute... as a minimum....interesting?... definately, lets go with brians example


5 shafts in 50 minutes, obviously 1 shaft every 10 second...your stats on the other hand.,(you'll love this one)

hmmm 10 shafts in a minute, meaning 1 shot every 6 seconds....wow which is more fanciful?!
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Shadeling
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2003, 01:32:24 PM »

Quote from: prophet118
hmm shadeling, you call what brian posted fanciful....oddly, you posted something that showed brian was being more realistic than you... he posted 5 shafts in a target in 50 seconds, you posted 10 arrows, in 1 minute... as a minimum....interesting?... definately, lets go with brians example


5 shafts in 50 minutes, obviously 1 shaft every 10 second...your stats on the other hand.,(you'll love this one)

hmmm 10 shafts in a minute, meaning 1 shot every 6 seconds....wow which is more fanciful?!


Prophet, why don't you go back, re-read Brian's post...actually I will quote it here for you:
Quote
I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds


That is a shot a second. Please read what people say before trying to prove them wrong.

Thanks.
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prophet118
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2003, 01:41:47 PM »

whoops, looks like im being a bit dyslexic today, sorry
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Shadeling
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2003, 01:42:44 PM »

Quote from: prophet118
whoops, looks like im being a bit dyslexic today, sorry


No harm, no foul. Everything is cool.
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prophet118
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2003, 01:45:26 PM »

though in my own defense, i meant to say "5 shafts in 50 seconds", not 50 minutes...lol
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Darth Tang
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2003, 02:23:18 PM »

A one-second combat round? so you could make 120 exchanges in a minute? WTF?

I already dropped the combat round to 6 seconds, two three-second exchanges, and I still think that's a bit fast.

I'm thinking of adopting a modified Hackmaster system: roll a 1d10, modify by agility, the 1-10 result (less than one is 1, more than 10 is ten) being which of the ten segments in a round you move on. Once melee combatants have closed to 'stance' range, they'll switch to the RoS rules, since nobody likes to fire into a melee.

As to the archer rates, at least one arrow per my six-second round would seem viable, and perhaps two (or three every two rounds), as hitting a target at 200 yards takes more aiming than hitting one at twenty.
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Brian Leybourne
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2003, 02:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Darth Tang
A one-second combat round? so you could make 120 exchanges in a minute? WTF?

I already dropped the combat round to 6 seconds, two three-second exchanges, and I still think that's a bit fast.

I'm thinking of adopting a modified Hackmaster system: roll a 1d10, modify by agility, the 1-10 result (less than one is 1, more than 10 is ten) being which of the ten segments in a round you move on. Once melee combatants have closed to 'stance' range, they'll switch to the RoS rules, since nobody likes to fire into a melee.

As to the archer rates, at least one arrow per my six-second round would seem viable, and perhaps two (or three every two rounds), as hitting a target at 200 yards takes more aiming than hitting one at twenty.


Sounds to me like you're stuck in D&D mode. Their 6-second rounds assume a fair amount of maneuvering, a few feints perhaps, certainly several swings, and then a roll to see what the overall effect of the combat round is.

In TROS, an exchange is just that - someone swings a weapon and someone tries to stop them (or swings also).One second per exchange or even one second per round is quite realistic. You could look at it that several TROS rounds = 1 D&D (or similar system) round.

It's been said before and I'll say it again.. try out the TROS system as-is before you start thinking of changes and "fixes". You may well (probably will) find after you try it that it works just fine.

Oh, and for the record - firing into melee is a bloody good tactic in TROS.. several warriors with an archer backing them up can take on forces that would otherwise kill them easily. There's no real justification for the D&D "if you fire into combat you have a 50% chance to hit a friend" rule.. sure, that could happen if you're firing randomly into combat, but picking a target, drawing a bead on them, and then having the reflexes to release at the right second (which I probably couldn't do, but then I don't have a proficiency of 7 in longbow) wouldn't be that hard. D&D's justification is "balance" (i.e. the archer is relatively safe while standing back and shooting and that's unfair to the warriors trisking their HP in melee) but in TROS we don't care about balance so much.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
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Aaron
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2003, 04:32:04 PM »

Quote from: Brian Leybourne

Oh, and for the record - firing into melee is a bloody good tactic in TROS.. several warriors with an archer backing them up can take on forces that would otherwise kill them easily. There's no real justification for the D&D "if you fire into combat you have a 50% chance to hit a friend" rule.. sure, that could happen if you're firing randomly into combat, but picking a target, drawing a bead on them, and then having the reflexes to release at the right second (which I probably couldn't do, but then I don't have a proficiency of 7 in longbow) wouldn't be that hard. D&D's justification is "balance" (i.e. the archer is relatively safe while standing back and shooting and that's unfair to the warriors trisking their HP in melee) but in TROS we don't care about balance so much.

Brian.


I hate to be the one to stick up for d20 but there aint no 50% chance to hit your mate rule in 3rd ed.  That being said I was wondering if anyone had come up with a way to throw or shoot without taking any refresh time.  It doesn't seem that unreasonable for someone to throw a dagger as its drawn from its sheath or throw a rock as they pick it up without taking a second to ready.  Just look at cricketers or baseball fieldsman.  they will quite often throw a ball on a blind turn or as they grab it without taking a second to aim.
Aaron
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Shadeling
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2003, 04:38:30 PM »

Quote from: Aaron
Quote from: Brian Leybourne

Oh, and for the record - firing into melee is a bloody good tactic in TROS.. several warriors with an archer backing them up can take on forces that would otherwise kill them easily. There's no real justification for the D&D "if you fire into combat you have a 50% chance to hit a friend" rule.. sure, that could happen if you're firing randomly into combat, but picking a target, drawing a bead on them, and then having the reflexes to release at the right second (which I probably couldn't do, but then I don't have a proficiency of 7 in longbow) wouldn't be that hard. D&D's justification is "balance" (i.e. the archer is relatively safe while standing back and shooting and that's unfair to the warriors trisking their HP in melee) but in TROS we don't care about balance so much.

Brian.




I hate to be the one to stick up for d20 but there aint no 50% chance to hit your mate rule in 3rd ed.  That being said I was wondering if anyone had come up with a way to throw or shoot without taking any refresh time.  It doesn't seem that unreasonable for someone to throw a dagger as its drawn from its sheath or throw a rock as they pick it up without taking a second to ready.  Just look at cricketers or baseball fieldsman.  they will quite often throw a ball on a blind turn or as they grab it without taking a second to aim.
Aaron


Think about this for a moment-it at least takes a second or two to cock back your arm and throw something. A second is quite fast, and while throwing the object you may not think seconds are flying by, but they are. I would say in such situations you would still have a tiny bit of prep time, but aren't letting your MP refresh fully.
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