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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 221 - most online ever: 565 (October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
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Author Topic: Indie RPG Awards: Finalists have been Decided!  (Read 9092 times)
Andy Kitkowski
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Posts: 827

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« on: March 27, 2003, 03:08:17 PM »

Hey, don't want to come in swinging what sounds to be like a total piece of PR. You can find out the full spiel at the awards site (http://www.rpg-awards.com), but I just wanted to get word out about the finalists so that people can show their support!

SUB-AWARDS:

INDIE RPG SUPPLEMENT OF THE YEAR
Jags C-13: The Thirteen Colonies for JAGS
Charnel Gods for Sorcerer
In-Speckers for InSpectres
Demon Cops for Sorcerer
Vendetta for Mean Streets

FREE INDIE RPG OF THE YEAR
Active Exploits
Nicotine Girls
Console
Shadows
Metal Opera

2002 BEST USE OF THE d20 LICENSE
d20 Zine!
The Kid's Colouring Book of Critters
Deeds Not Words
101 Mundate Treasures
Thee Compleat Librum ov Gar'Udok's Necromantic Artes

BEST PRODUCTION
Children of the Sun
Dust Devils
octaNe
Trollbabe
The Colonies

BEST SUPPORT
Trollbabe
Riddle of Steel
Cartoon Action Hour
InSpectres
Mean Streets

BEST SYNERGY of GAME and RULES:
Nicotine Girls
Dust Devils
Riddle of Steel
InSpectres
Kayfabe

MOST INNOVATIVE GAME:
Universalis
Dust Devils
Soap
Trollbabe
Donjon

INDIE RPG HUMAN of the YEAR:
Ron Edwards
Brett Bernstein
Clinton Nixon
Jared Sorensen
Andy Kitkowski

INDIE RPG ZINE of the YEAR
d20 Zine!
Places to Go, People to Be
Critical Miss
Roleplaying Tips Weekly
The Shadowrun Supplemental

Finally, the 2002 INDIE RPG OF THE YEAR:

NOTE: There was a 4 way tie (!) for slots 4-5. Because of this tie, the only thing to do would be to allow ALL 7 games into the final round.

The Riddle of Steel
Cartoon Action Hour
Lightspeed
Children of the Sun
InSpectres
Donjon
Dust Devils

Thanks for your attention, everyone, and thanks to Ron for his support (and showing how to best place these announcements at The Forge).

-Andy
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2003, 08:43:15 PM »

You know, I thought this was a great idea, and I could see some really deserving folk being honored by being nominated...

... until I found out that to vote I have to pay $10US per vote.

Award systems should be decided on who is the best, not who has the richest friends. I don't care that the money goes to the winners, it's still a rediculous system. Even if voting wouldn't cost me TWENTY dollars per vote (exchange rate), I still wouldn't give a cent to an exclusivist system such as this.

And does nobody but me see the irony in being asked to pay to vote for the best free game of the year?

Bah Humbug. And shame on you.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2003, 08:53:19 PM »

Hmm.

I'm not going to edit the above post, because I stand by my comments in it. However, on reflection the tone is probably more confrontational than I intended. Apologies if any offense was caused. I'm easily riled up by systems that proport to discover "the best" of something but that do not have an open and fair system of voting, meaning that the results are meaningless because only a subgroup of the proported target group (in this case, people with money to burn) have actually had the opportunity to vote.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Andy Kitkowski
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Posts: 827

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2003, 09:04:27 PM »

Thanks for the comments!

This is actually the reason I hate starting new threads rather than posting updates to old ones.

The full discussion of the awards, including why I went the "buy votes" route, is here:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=3774

Quote from: Brian Leybourne

... until I found out that to vote I have to pay $10US per vote.


You didn't read how buying votes affects voting. It explains everything about the system, how they affect the real voting done by industry peers (in a word: Not Very Much), and why this jugemental reaction is perhaps uncalled for:
http://www.rpg-awards.com/rpga/buyvote.shtml

No one has to buy votes. In fact, no votes were purchased at all for the preliminary round. The buying votes is simply an element that allows people aside from the 50+ game designers to have a say in who wins what. It's a way for fans of a game to show their support.

Quote from: Brian Leybourne

Award systems should be decided on who is the best, not who has the richest friends.


The spirit of the awards is a celebration, like a cocktail party (or more like a pub) where, at some point, we chat about what games were particularly excellent last year. They aren't a way to decide which of the nearly hundred registered indie games and supplements that came out last year are the ontologically best. It's untenable, even: Who has time to look at, purchase, read much less play all the games and supplements listed on my site.

But this has already all been taken into consideration.

Quote from: Brian Leybourne

Bah Humbug. And shame on you.


Again, I appreciate ALL feedback, good and especially bad (so I can fix things for next year), but I have a hard time accepting knee-jerk reactions, for bad or good, from those who haven't bothered to read about how the site works. Again, please read about how the buying votes system works at this URL:
http://www.rpg-awards.com/rpga/buyvote.shtml
and you will understand that it is impossible for a game to win on purchased votes alone (but it can be a good tie-breaker in a close race).

Thanks everyone.  Feedback is certainly welcome here, but if anyone has specific concerns please feel free to email them to me (click the email button in my profile).

EDIT:
Quote from: Brian Leybourne
I'm not going to edit the above post, because I stand by my comments in it. However, on reflection the tone is probably more confrontational than I intended. Apologies if any offense was caused.


Thanks for the apology, I appreciate it.

Still, if you check out the above links, you'll see that not only does purchasing votes not dominate the awards, but that it's an element designed to get the community more involved in the awards. Please thoroughly read the Forge link on how the idea of purchased votes was brought up, and then the link to my site to show how they were implemented.

Thanks again!

-Andy
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Andy Kitkowski
Member

Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2003, 09:18:13 PM »

Oh, just a quick anecdote:

M. Jason Parent, creator of some excellent d20 D&D supplements, had nearly the exact same reaction to my awards as Brian did when I brought them up at the EnWorld forums. He joked that he could spend $10,000 on votes to himself, guaranteeing a win and the rest of the money.

When he read how I was using the system, he withdrew his comments and signed up some of his supplements for the awards, both of which have made it to the finals (and which, as I comment on my site, nearly were included in several other categories as well).

Again, this kind of feedback isn't harmful or anything.  It just shows that, next year, if I continue the "buying votes" thing, that I'll have to spend more time explaining the process clearly, and to make that description clearly visible to new viewers. It all goes to making the awards better!
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Andy Kitkowski
Member

Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2003, 07:31:06 AM »

Thanks to Brian's comments, I went ahead and retuned my Buying Votes pages to clearly state their function and mission, and to break down in laymans terms how they do (and especially do not) affect the awards process.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback!
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Andy Kitkowski
Member

Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2003, 01:59:45 PM »

Just a quick pre-release finals update, in case anyone was following:

I haven't made a public announcement yet, but I'm basically removing the option to buy votes from the Indie Awards.  I really wanted to take a sec and thank the folks who suggested it, because if it worked empirically like it worked theoretically, it would have been a really cool addition to the awards: folks spending a couple bucks to watch their home favorite step that much closer to the finish line, etc.

Well, in the end, with a matter of days left, only a few (that is, 2) folks purchased votes. The amount of money gathered was less than 1/10 of the pool of total donations in money and game items.

Whatsmore, as was demonstrated here and other places (like at the following link, http://www.thecreativeguy.com/bones/archives/000707.html ), no matter how much I try to describe the process, no matter how I rewrite, reword, or edit it to make people understand it, there's nothing stopping people from making a value jugement on this process without even spending the 30 seconds to read about it.

Sure, they're my awards, and I should do what I want: The thing is, this Buying Votes thing wasn't bringing in any money or, even worse, interest in the awards. So I'd rather drop them than fight for them and lose credibility.

They're gone. The two folks who donated for buying awards were contacted and will either have their money returned or can keep it, and I'll match the funds they placed with my own.

Sad that it didn't work out, sadder yet that people didn't even spend the 30 seconds to read how or why they worked.

Everything else is right on schedule, though, and we should see some interesting results next week!

-Andy
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Clinton R. Nixon
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2003, 02:34:04 PM »

Andy,

While I respect your decision, especially in the light of the fact that the option wasn't being used, make sure you're making the decision for yourself, and not for your detractors.

If there's one thing I've learned running the Forge, it's that no matter what you do in life, there will be detractors, people who purposefully misunderstand everything, and people who will tear you apart because it's the only way they can not feel empty, even for a moment. As a self-confessed ex-negative-Nancy, I understand this as well as anyone. The author of the web page you linked to is one of those, and his opinion should be worthless in your decision. If you think those are too harsh words, read as much as you want, and you'll find someone flailing around in pain, throwing phrases like "L. Ron Edwards" in order to legitimize himself.

Man - that was a bit off my chest. Fuck 'em if they ain't positive - my new motto.

Edit: I added a sentence above.

Also, where's my cult?
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
Andy Kitkowski
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Posts: 827

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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2003, 07:10:28 PM »

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon
Andy,
While I respect your decision, especially in the light of the fact that the option wasn't being used, make sure you're making the decision for yourself, and not for your detractors.


Clinton: Thanks for the affirmation- I appreciate it! Thing is, deep at heart, I'm a pragmatist:

I thought that going with the buying votes thing would both bring money in to the awards (for the designers/winners) and get fans of the games to, y'know, get involved, have a little fun, bet on their favorite horse, that kind of thing. But it really didn't pan out at all. Like, nearly zero.

So fighting for them wasn't really woth it, y'know? It's like fighting for something that isn't really paying off for my goals anyway...

One guy's blather wasn't what made me decide, but it was more of a catalyst. Again, if we were getting tons of fan funding and friendly involvement, I'd just wave those naysayers off. But as it was, it's really no loss. I was going to pull the plug after the awards anyway, but I figured I might as well do it before this year's awards, because if there were controversial results, it would have put kind of a boot in the face of my legitimacy goal.

Plus, the challenge of finding a new way to get fans behind their nominated games, or another way to drum up money and giveaways, sounds like a fun one...

Quote
If there's one thing I've learned running the Forge, it's that no matter what you do in life, there will be detractors, people who purposefully misunderstand everything, and people who will tear you apart...


Yeah- I've always wondered why designers (not just games, either) were sometimes so cranky... Having your productions of personal praxis and unalienated labor ripped apart by self-righteous mouth-breathers who don't even bother to "crack the cover"... Yeah, I can totally see it. :)

Quote from:
Also, where's my cult?

Actually, more than that I was wondering: If I'm part of the "Cult of Ron", how come no one's bothered to mail me my registration card of pin? Or do we get hockey jerseys? I want my CoR Swag!!

-Andy
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Valamir
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2003, 07:24:40 PM »

That's too bad, I really liked the idea.

I still think the idea of having a soliciting donations link is a good one.  I guess for next year it just needs to be something other than votes.

I actually had a couple of ideas that I was saving for your at the end feedback inquiry, but they might be applicable here.

What if as a condition for making it to the final round, game designers were required to donate 1 copy of their game to a prize pool, and then all of the games...the complete "Years Best Indie Games Collection" was raffled off.

Or as a variant, instead of having them all together, perhaps there are 5 bundles (1 of each category, given 5 finalists in each category), so there are 5 chances to win.  $10-15 bucks a pop to win the collection might be just the ticket to build up the prize pool...
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Andy Kitkowski
Member

Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2003, 07:53:52 PM »

Quote from: Valamir
I still think the idea of having a soliciting donations link is a good one.  I guess for next year it just needs to be something other than votes.


Oh, totally.  On both counts, actually. :)

Quote from: Valamir
I actually had a couple of ideas that I was saving for your at the end feedback inquiry, but they might be applicable here.


Actually, Ralph, I'd like you to save them for now: I don't want to get into this discusion quite yet, but rather take it all on during the feedback process: I don't want you to "blow your load", as it were, of good ideas yet.  I'd like to maybe start a new topic on that once the awards are over, and certainly grab your feedback (and others') then.

But, just to glance at them, they are really good ideas. There may be troubles with getting one person to submit a $30 hardbound when another person only has to submit a $5 PDF, but I'm sure we can work something out. Again, though, I wanna save all these excellent ideas for after the awards, when I have the time and energy to review them at my peak.

Thanks!
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
taalyn
Member

Posts: 370

Aidan Grey


« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2003, 11:00:22 AM »

I thought the pay for a vote idea was good too, to add my voice to the positive fans. My issue: $10 is too much for a grad student like me. A smaller amount ($1 a vote) would get more votes/$$$, but with the limits you've got in place, would still not overly influence the process. I'm a lot more willing to spend $4 to vote on 4 different games than $40 to do the same.

 Hopefully that made sense...

  Aidan
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Aidan Grey

Crux Live the Abnatural
Andy Kitkowski
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Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2003, 01:48:45 PM »

Quote from: taalyn
I thought the pay for a vote idea was good too, to add my voice to the positive fans. My issue: $10 is too much for a grad student like me. A smaller amount ($1 a vote) would get more votes/$$$, but with the limits you've got in place, would still not overly influence the process. I'm a lot more willing to spend $4 to vote on 4 different games than $40 to do the same.


Hey Aidan- Thanks for the comments.  Again, I'll probably create a thread here when I gather feedback, but I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the feedback here. I think what I'll have to do, though, is to come up with a way for people to pitch in their virtual 2 cents without having to spend anything.

Just some unorganized thoughts: Allow people not involved in voting the opportunity to submit feedback for their favorite games (that will be posted). Allow people to submit a vote via an email address (this will take a lot of organization), and these "shadow votes" will make up a "Player's Choice" sub-award, as well as break ties...

Anyway, more later.
Again, thanks!

-Andy
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2003, 07:33:38 PM »

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon
If there's one thing I've learned running the Forge, it's that no matter what you do in life, there will be detractors, people who purposefully misunderstand everything, and people who will tear you apart because it's the only way they can not feel empty, even for a moment.


Given that this comment is presumably targeted in my direction as well, I thought I should reply to it and say that in my own defense, I did go to the webpage, and I did read through the "buying a vote" section, but I found it poorly worded and it seemed to come across exactly as I said in my original post. It was later re-written for clarity, I understand.

I'm not empty inside, nor do I intentionally misinterpret things or detract from people for kicks. It was an unfortunate misunderstanding.

Oh, and the whole L. Ron Edwards thing..? I find it curious that there is this huge division in the RPG industry; everyone you talk to either thinks The Forge is a great resource, or that everyone who chooses to post here is a pretentious wanker. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground; like the present Iraq War you either love it or you hate it. I have to confess to not really understanding how this has all come about, although of course there are some notable names in the RPG industry who will bad mouth The Forge at every possible opportunity (including one who clearly used to be a pretty frequent poster here) which doesn't help. I don't suppose anyone wants to clue me in on how that came about? :-)

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Clinton R. Nixon
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Posts: 2624


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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2003, 09:54:46 PM »

Brian,

I just wanted to let you know that I wasn't targeting you - legitimate questions and complaints are awesome.
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
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