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Author Topic: The Glowing Staff Problem, faery magic, etc.  (Read 11091 times)
Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« on: April 06, 2003, 02:35:27 AM »

The original thread for this was five pages long and a little down the list, so I thought I'd start a new post. Got a problem with it?

Oh well.

Can't please everybody, but I'm not terribly keen on answering a message three pages back on a five-page post.

I've well and truly solved the Glowing Staff Problem.

It still involves Vision 3, but I can make real light now.

To target something, I need to see it. Electrons are things, but they are things so tiny that I simply cannot percieve them without the help of Vision 3.

Why are electrons important? Because of their relation to Photons. Photons are most often created when an Electron gets a little energetic. For some reason, it's going faster than it should be. The Atom it's attached to is unstable, and thus the electron drops to a lower energy level, emitting a photon as a way to get rid of that pent-up energy.

This means all I need to do to make light is jostle electrons.

This is still a really difficult way of doing a simple parlour trick: two Master-level vagaries.

Glamour actually creates the things that effect the senses, rather than simple effecting the senses?

So, using Glamour, I could blast someone with a LASER beam, causing permanent and irrecoverable injury (you said this was REAL light.)
I could use sound waves to move objects, and bash someone's head in with my realistic stick.

I don't think I like this. This makes Glamour a REAL DANG GOOD way of killing people and DOING ANYTHING ELSE. It becomes the ONLY VAGARY YOU WILL EVER NEED.

Even if it's just illusion, Glamour is not the same as Conquer. A Glamour will effect anyone trying to percieve the reality behind it, while Conquer can only effect MA living beings. Glamour can create an interactive illusion, while Conquer can only plant an image or a scripted event in a target's head. Pain is a sensation, and therefore a Glamour which is nothing more than illusion can cause it.


And there is overlap between other vagaries. Movement can produce nearly all the effects of Sculpture. Imprisonment and Banishment are both just handy ways of getting rid of inconvenient forces.

Glamour is a mental vagary. Let's leave off before we let it have actual physical effects (one of which is light.)
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arxhon
Member

Posts: 254


« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2003, 09:33:19 AM »

What about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? :-P

As long as we're using relatively advanced theories of physics to "explain" the uses of magic, we are going to have to include all of it. We could go whole hog and include quantum physics and string theory, if we like. :-)

I'm with Jake's interpretation: you can make light with Glamour. The laser beam would create the illusion of someone being cut in half or whatever, but when the illusion dissipates, he would be whole again. Same goes for deafening sound.

The reason Glamour seems to have too much power is because people are trying to put too much power into it. I can see why people are arguing about it. On the other hand, why are people so hung up about "real light" vs "illusionary light"?

My own interpretation was much simpler: Conjure a glowing spirit, Hold it, and then Imprison it in the end of the staff, or use Conquer to force it to hang around the end of the staff. A Level 1 in each of these is sufficient.

Of course, if you have a glowing spirit, you won't need to stick it on the end of your staff...

I'm going with Jake on this: Glamour can create light. Plain and simple.
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Anthony I
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2003, 09:33:49 AM »

Perhaps the whole idea of a "utility" spell is a d&d-type hold over.  If your magic has no consequences you sling spells around like nothing, but, suppose you know that there is a consequence (aging in tros' case) that can happen regardless of the precautions you take.  Do you take the chance, small as it is, or do you just light a candle.  

Stressing the "what are you willing to kill/die for" aspect of tros- are you willing to give up life time just because you didn't bring a lantern or don't know how to pick a lock, or you got cold, etc?  In some instances you might, in some you won't.

Another thought I had, perhaps "light" isn't as easy a spell to make happen as we might think.  Again, this "utility" spell concept may be a hold over from game systems where there is no consequence to your spell casting.  Perhaps adding our perceptions of modern science to the creation and use of magic is again adding simplicity to something that should be complex.  

Why wouldn't a mage just use a fire to light the room?

The whole idea of using/manipulating protons and electrons to create effects may not be applicable for the tech level and time period of the game.  

I probably wouldn't allow Glamour to make light, as it is written, and after thinking about it, I'll probably just tell players that if they want light they better bring something to burn.
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Anthony I

Las Vegas RPG Club Memeber
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Rick
Member

Posts: 22


eh.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2003, 12:34:33 AM »

Glamour works by sublimating the neuro electric pathways of the brain in a manner simulating a prefabricated reality germanated by the immagination of the caster ( In effect entwining an overwhelming (hopefully) copy of of a brainwave pattern based on the casters own EEG pattern onto that of the target creature) .  Because the effect targets the brainwaves directly (thus needing a target value of 3 to effect other people) it simulates any effect the caster is able to envision within his/her mind.  This is limited to the accuracy and perception of the caster.  If you can't see the maze, you can't guide someone through it with glowing arrows.  This statement brings rise to a host of variables that must be dealt with on a case buy case basis.  Things such as how well the illusion is represented might be based on the artistic skill of the caster.  Based on the believability of the environment into which the mind is placed, it will within its experience act accordingly.  However without the incorporation of other vagaries to support it, it is in fact nothing more then a superimposed vision of a complexity in accordance with the spell description that the target can interact with (of its own free will). So in my opinion, your initial belief that vision or some other Vagary as a required component is correct. As would be Movement to physically damage anyone with a laser beam.  You can make light, yes; however you would still walk into the wall that you couldn’t see (all the while pretending it wasn’t there).  Glamour is only superimposing your reality for natures, and your reality is only as detailed or accurate as what you make it. I do think that the paradigms of technological context should be considered, if not obeyed. However, I think that the system lends itself quite nicely to the incorporation/adjudication of any realistic, sci-fi, or fantasy scientific strictures desired by whoever is playing the game.  

{String theory would only come into play if the caster were trying to prove the fall off of gravity into another dimension.   (First dimension as far as light is concerned being a laser beam inside a fiber optic cable, etc, etc...)  As for Photon based lighting, you would still have to gather the photons and interpret them in some manner, try using Global Illumination. Or use the ambient color of the materials to generate a Final Gathering.  For fun, try caustics in your refractive materials.  (you have to have photon emitting lights though) Lol.}
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Valamir
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2003, 03:15:09 AM »

Anthony:  Bingo.
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Sneaky Git
Member

Posts: 169


« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2003, 08:57:02 AM »

Quote from: Bob Richter
Glamour actually creates the things that effect the senses, rather than simple effecting the senses?

So, using Glamour, I could blast someone with a LASER beam, causing permanent and irrecoverable injury (you said this was REAL light.)
I could use sound waves to move objects, and bash someone's head in with my realistic stick.


From where I'm coming from, that statement would be true.  If you had knowledge of a laser beam, you could direct it at someone.  No problem.  And it would, as I far as I understand it kill them dead (so long as they believed it).  And then, they would wake up...and not be dead.  Same goes for the stick.

Now, understand that this is how I see Glamour working.  I agree, it does raise some interesting issues, but interactive illusions are at the core of what Glamour is.

Quote from: arxhon
My own interpretation was much simpler: Conjure a glowing spirit, Hold it, and then Imprison it in the end of the staff, or use Conquer to force it to hang around the end of the staff. A Level 1 in each of these is sufficient.


Although it avoids the "issue" entirely, this is certainly another way to accomplish the required goal of lighting a room.  Nice.

Quote from: Anthony I
Perhaps the whole idea of a "utility" spell is a d&d-type hold over.  If your magic has no consequences you sling spells around like nothing, but, suppose you know that there is a consequence (aging in tros' case) that can happen regardless of the precautions you take.  Do you take the chance, small as it is, or do you just light a candle.


Excellent point.  It's a good rule of thumb in many instances... bring fire.  Seriously though, I agree with Anthony.  We should be careful (and by we, I am stressing the me part) with our assumptions concerning the cost/benefit ratio of basic spells.  If it can siphon off a portion of your life...is it basic?

Chris
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Molon labe.
"Come and get them."

- Leonidas of Sparta, in response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms.
Ashren Va'Hale
Member

Posts: 427


« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2003, 10:23:02 AM »

reminds me of what I call the matrix effect. If you trick the mind sufficiently it might as well be real, including death from shock etc. So I woudl allow the players and npc's to make a save of sorts should they somehow be shot by a glamour laser beam or like effect.
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Philosophy: Take whatever is not nailed down, for the rest, well thats what movement is for!
arxhon
Member

Posts: 254


« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2003, 02:53:12 PM »

Quote
Glamour works by sublimating the neuro electric pathways....(et al)


LMAO! Sweeet stuff, Rick! :-) The point i was trying to make is that people are putting too much science into the magic. Which i guess was bound to happen with the scientific explanations given in Book 6.

Quote
Although it avoids the "issue" entirely, this is certainly another way to accomplish the required goal of lighting a room. Nice.


Yeah, it does avoid the issue, but that's because it is simpler. And yes, i think it is nice as well. Thank you. :-)

Quote
We should be careful (and by we, I am stressing the me part) with our assumptions concerning the cost/benefit ratio of basic spells. If it can siphon off a portion of your life...is it basic?


I say, unequivocally, NO. That's the thing with magic. Again while dancing around the issue somewhat, i agree that no magic in TROS is equivalent to a Light spell from D&D, i.e. there is no basic magic.

I agree with Anthony I here as well.

I'm afraid we can all argue until everyone is blue in the face about Glamour, and not get anywhere. Instead of pendantically overanalyzing it, why not just accept that Glamour can create light? Probably because overanalysis is fun ;-)
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2003, 05:23:33 PM »

Quote from: arxhon
What about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? :-P


It doesn't apply, actually. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle only applies to things I'm not certain about. With Vision 3, I know EXACTLY where that Electron is, when it's there, and how fast its moving (No matter that physics deems that impossible.) Probability collapses and Schrodinger's Cat is dead.

Quote
As long as we're using relatively advanced theories of physics to "explain" the uses of magic, we are going to have to include all of it. We could go whole hog and include quantum physics and string theory, if we like. :-)


Oh, pooh. Photon Emission is too advanced for you? :P

Quote
I'm with Jake's interpretation: you can make light with Glamour. The laser beam would create the illusion of someone being cut in half or whatever, but when the illusion dissipates, he would be whole again. Same goes for deafening sound.


Is it real light or sound, or only a perfectly realistic illusion thereof? If it's real, it can cut a man in half or turn his bones to jelly...PERMANENTLY (real light and sound have real and lasting effects.) If it's NOT real, it can't light a room, period (tho it can certainly appear to.)

Quote
The reason Glamour seems to have too much power is because people are trying to put too much power into it. I can see why people are arguing about it. On the other hand, why are people so hung up about "real light" vs "illusionary light"?


Real light can light a room. Illusory light cannot. Seems pretty simple to me.

Quote
My own interpretation was much simpler: Conjure a glowing spirit, Hold it, and then Imprison it in the end of the staff, or use Conquer to force it to hang around the end of the staff. A Level 1 in each of these is sufficient.


Spirit summoning? Ye gods! I think I'll just bring a torch.
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2003, 05:37:29 PM »

Quote from: Anthony I
Perhaps the whole idea of a "utility" spell is a d&d-type hold over.  If your magic has no consequences you sling spells around like nothing, but, suppose you know that there is a consequence (aging in tros' case) that can happen regardless of the precautions you take.  Do you take the chance, small as it is, or do you just light a candle.  

Stressing the "what are you willing to kill/die for" aspect of tros- are you willing to give up life time just because you didn't bring a lantern or don't know how to pick a lock, or you got cold, etc?  In some instances you might, in some you won't.

Another thought I had, perhaps "light" isn't as easy a spell to make happen as we might think.  Again, this "utility" spell concept may be a hold over from game systems where there is no consequence to your spell casting.  Perhaps adding our perceptions of modern science to the creation and use of magic is again adding simplicity to something that should be complex.  

Why wouldn't a mage just use a fire to light the room?

The whole idea of using/manipulating protons and electrons to create effects may not be applicable for the tech level and time period of the game.  

I probably wouldn't allow Glamour to make light, as it is written, and after thinking about it, I'll probably just tell players that if they want light they better bring something to burn.


First, D&D does have penalties for casting spells. You only get so many of them in a day, so each spell has an immediate and obvious opportunity cost.

In TROS you risk only losing a few months off your life, which won't matter until years down the road anyway.

Protons and Electrons exist, regardless of technology and time period. Vision 3 lets you see them. Movement lets you manipulate them.

Knowing the effects of doing so would only require having tried it once or twice.

What's the point of being a Magician if you don't use spells, anyway?

And if you use spells, why not use spells for EVERYTHING?

There's a lot of reasons not to use fire for illumination.

For one, it's FIRE. Fire will kill you. First, it can burn you to death. Second, it competes for the same oxygen you are breathing.

For another, it's FIRE. You have to bring along some very bulky "material components" to keep a fire going for a decent amount of time.

Finally, it's FIRE. It provides a flickering illumination, not the near-daylight of an Incandescent Lightbulb. It simply won't much impress the yokels.
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Callan S.
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Posts: 3588


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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2003, 09:02:58 PM »

Why does the idea of glamour seem to slip into 'it tricks your mind' territory again. Obviously you can play that way, but from what I've read here in other posts, its akin to saying telekinesis is just magic telling your mind somthing is being lifted, and it isn't really.
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Philosopher Gamer
<meaning></meaning>
Ashren Va'Hale
Member

Posts: 427


« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2003, 11:18:46 PM »

the way I see it is simple, Magic alters reality, and how it does so is up tointerpretation I suppose but I figure galmour is the really spooky vagary that not only alters reality but temporarily changes it and creates a new reality, albeit temporarily.
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Anthony I
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Posts: 72


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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2003, 11:22:50 PM »

Quote
In TROS you risk only losing a few months off your life, which won't matter until years down the road anyway.

Unless you happen to fall unconscious at an inopportune time, then it matters immediately.

Quote
Protons and Electrons exist, regardless of technology and time period. Vision 3 lets you see them. Movement lets you manipulate them.

Vision 3 doesn't say or imply that you can see things on a molecular level.  This was something I had meant to ask about before- is there some offical errata that lead you to this conclusion or is it just the popular interpetation?  
Vision (at least the clairvoyance aspect) lets you view events like you're there.  I read this as in the same room or nearby.  I see the magnification aspects being used to see small details, but I still read Vision 3 as similar to 1 and 2 but with no range limitations.  Am I missing the trees for the forest on this one?
I'd say its a stretch to say that this allows you to see events on a molecular level...but with the proviso that since it's your game, you interpet it how you want.

Quote
What's the point of being a Magician if you don't use spells, anyway?

And if you use spells, why not use spells for EVERYTHING?

1) lots of people on Weyrth would like to see you burn at the stake for performing witchcraft.

2) you greatly increase your chance of something going wrong.  Of course, if your character concept is a mage living on the edge, reveling in his power and doesn't care if he burns out....well, that's okay too.

Quote
There's a lot of reasons not to use fire for illumination....Finally, it's  It simply won't much impress the yokels.

I think that I'll just use Conquer to make the yokels impressed by everything I do ;>
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Anthony I

Las Vegas RPG Club Memeber
found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lv_rpg_club/
Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2003, 06:16:13 AM »

Quote from: Noon
Why does the idea of glamour seem to slip into 'it tricks your mind' territory again. Obviously you can play that way, but from what I've read here in other posts, its akin to saying telekinesis is just magic telling your mind somthing is being lifted, and it isn't really.


Not at all. Glamour is the magic of illusion. It is supposed to trick the senses. Saying that it does anything more (or less) than that is rather like saying telekinesis can be used to make direct mind-to-mind contact with another being (that would be telepathy, actually.)
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2003, 06:17:50 AM »

Quote from: Ashren Va'Hale
the way I see it is simple, Magic alters reality, and how it does so is up tointerpretation I suppose but I figure galmour is the really spooky vagary that not only alters reality but temporarily changes it and creates a new reality, albeit temporarily.


So....how do things revert back to reality when I come out of this fantasy land where the room is lighted by my staff?

I'd tend to think I'd be right back in the same pitchblack cavern I started in, no? So I'm thinking it actually wouldn't have accomplished my objective.
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