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Independent Game Forums => Adept Press => Topic started by: Ron Edwards on July 28, 2010, 07:23:17 AM



Title: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on July 28, 2010, 07:23:17 AM
It occurred to me that 2011 is a significant anniversary for me. I published the first available version of Sorcerer in fall 2006, and I published the book version in 2001. That makes the upcoming year the game's 15-year and 10-year anniversary, at the same time.

I'll tell you what I have in mind and you can tell me what you think.

1. A new version of the core book which preserves all the original text, but includes extensive annotations from my current perspective. It might have new art and cover too.

2. A deluxe custom version of the above, very spiffy.

3. Versions of both of the above in Italian, which are currently in contract negotiations. I'd like to push for some other translations as well, specifically Spanish, German, and Japanese.

4. A long-overdue update of the non-Adept supplement policy, with a much better website-based support system. I'd like to write some kind of Guide & Advice document, without it being a laundry list of requirements.

I'm not sure what, if anything, I'd like to do with the supplements. I'm happy with their content and not inclined to re-write or annotate them. Nor am I inclined to combine them with the core book. Perhaps bundling them into one big book? Suggestions are welcome as long as you remember that no one pays me to do this and my time constraints are significant.

5. Some kind of artistic consolidation at the Adept site ... I've always wanted to promote visual expression of the concepts in the game, as diverse as possible. If I could get some kind of artist's gallery along the lines of a miniature Elfwood.com, that'd be really cool.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Judd on July 28, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Sounds keen.

If there's anything I can do to help with any of the above steps, please let me know.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: jburneko on July 28, 2010, 10:56:04 AM
I'd love having all three supplements in one hardcover.  I'm very hard on my Sorcerer books.  It's one of a handful of games I repeatedly play.  I always take them with me when I travel.  My copy of Sorcerer & Sword is extremely worn and one page of my Sorcerer core book is kind of loose.

So yeah, new annotated core book plus compiled supplements would be appreciated.

Jesse


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: greyorm on July 28, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
Ron, you said new cover and I thought that would be neat, then by the time I finished reading everyone's replies, I swear I was hit by the most ridiculously cool idea for that ever. (I honestly don't know that it would work, or whether you'd want me to do the cover again, but fuck do I want to try it now because I almost never have ideas hit me full-formed that fast.)

Anyways, a artists' gallery would be awesome. And I have no idea if it would work, but perhaps sections for prose and short visual media as well? A submission gallery for links to things other people have made that say "Sorcerer" to them (rather like the links section on the old site, actually). What else are you thinking of for the site? (I know the original site had some grandiose plans for various things that never quite "made it": the character/demon repository, a section for one-sheets, definitely site support for the minisups, etc.)


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paiku on July 30, 2010, 08:50:45 AM
Cool. 

1. I would buy it for the annotations and especially if there was new art (nothing wrong with the old art, I just want MORE Sorcerer art).  I agree with not combining the Adept supplements with the core book.

3. I'd buy one in Italian, just cuz.

4. Ya, it's probably best to manage/guide the development of non-Adept supplements as loosely as possible.  Don't want to constrain anyone's creativity. 

*re-reading*  Okay, it looks like no major changes are in store for & Sword and Soul.  Good, I was just about to order them (I've been getting by on borrowing Ry's til now), and I don't want to have to wait for Anniversary Editions!  Although (datapoint), if an all-in-one hardcover of the Adept supplements was available now, I'd probably go for that.

Cheers,
-John


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paolo D. on July 30, 2010, 09:55:56 AM
The n. 3 is the one that I wanted to suggest...
Then I read it. :-) Sorcerer in Italian! Cool!

Especially if combined by n. 1... Hell yeah...


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Troy_Costisick on July 30, 2010, 06:24:31 PM
1. A new version of the core book which preserves all the original text, but includes extensive annotations from my current perspective. It might have new art and cover too.

Ron, I would buy a new one just for that.  That would allow me to loan out my old one to one of my students who might be interested.  Incidentally, didn't you publish the first version in 1996 instead of 2006?


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: greyorm on July 30, 2010, 11:36:49 PM
As I recall, 1996 was the free "send me a couple bucks if you like this" version. Or in modern parlance "the ashcan", I guess. I, too, was confused as hell what Ron meant by "I published the first available version of Sorcerer in fall 2006" and assumed his brain did a date-mixup misfire and he meant 1996.

That or he's become a Time Lord and this keeping track of time-stuff in-the-right-order is just too much a bother.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Nocker on July 31, 2010, 05:19:49 AM
1. A new version of the core book which preserves all the original text, but includes extensive annotations from my current perspective. It might have new art and cover too.

Ron, I would buy a new one just for that.
Same here. Browsing the Wiki is less handy than a new book.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Darcy Burgess on July 31, 2010, 05:26:11 AM
Hi Ron,

Happy anniversaries!

The curmudgeoney, uncharitable and somewhat fatigued consumer in me really dislikes the notion of a "new and improved" edition of the Sorcerer core book.  This jaded part of my personality is just that: a part; it's a large enough part of my emotional wiring that the product wouldn't appeal to me, but it isn't so large that I'd get all huffy and (say) boycott your work.

For whatever reason, the "deluxe" version doesn't rub me the wrong way; maybe because I'm picturing it as a coffee-table book, and the notion of Sorcerer being on display in some cocaine-fueled 80s party scene in a Michael Mann film appeals to me on a very perverse level.

Now, the rest of what you wrote has me jazzed.  Branching out into other language markets is wonderful.  This is new territory, and feels new, and exciting.

The supplement policy is doubly so.  Here's a way that's going to help me get my hands on new content, wider & whackier ways to hack Sorcerer, and hopefully lead to more new stuff like Dictionary of Mu.  That's really important, and I like the "jamming with Ron" vibe it sets up in me.

Curmudgeonly,
Darcy


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on July 31, 2010, 11:28:51 AM
It occurred to me that 2011 is a significant anniversary for me. I published the first available version of Sorcerer in fall 2006, and I published the book version in 2001. That makes the upcoming year the game's 15-year and 10-year anniversary, at the same time.

I'll tell you what I have in mind and you can tell me what you think.

1. A new version of the core book which preserves all the original text, but includes extensive annotations from my current perspective. It might have new art and cover too.

4. A long-overdue update of the non-Adept supplement policy, with a much better website-based support system. I'd like to write some kind of Guide & Advice document, without it being a laundry list of requirements.
Awesome!

Congrats on the anniversary for each. Sorcerer is an awesome concept.

I'm particularly interested in #1 because of the annotations.

I'm also a big fan of an updated website support system. I think that Sorcerer is hard for some folks to grasp (heck, I still don't know if I "get it" or not) and any sort of support and advice would be welcome.

I'd like to see Sorcerer become more "mainstream" somehow. Don't get me wrong -- any game that survives for 15 years isn't just a flash-in-the-pan -- but it certainly seems to be a small niche game and I'd like to see it get more exposure and maybe more creative minds will put togther more materials for it. I know that the supplement area has been mostly explored (except for Sorcerer in Space, which I still hope to see printed someday) but there certainly is room for more mini-supplement campaign settings or scenarios. Seems like there aren't many folks who have played the game and it would be really neat if we could somehow spread the word to more players.

Also, I'd like to have more Sorcerer items out there so I can spend my hard-earned money faster. :-)


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Aaron on August 05, 2010, 07:26:49 PM
I would buy a new version of the core book too.  No question.

Congrats on the anniversaries.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Hans Chung-Otterson on August 05, 2010, 10:13:37 PM
As someone who owns the book & all supplements:

I'd totally buy a new, annotated Sorcerer, no question. I wouldn't buy a version of all the supplements together, but then mine are in fine condition. If I didn't have them, I'd definitely buy them together. A good option for those new to Sorcerer (or the supplements).


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Eero Tuovinen on August 07, 2010, 07:33:40 AM
Vindication!

Meaning, I remember suggesting this sort of thing to Ron and getting chewed for it some years back :D

Anyway, I like all of these ideas, but the one I like the most is the website thing. The current-new website of Adept Press is already very representative, but I'm pretty certain that anything that can be done to improve on that side is the bestest thing that could be done for the game in whole; Sorcerer is and probably always will be a growth phenomenon that matters most as something to be introduced to new people, and a solid website is a key tool in that in this day and age. A site that can speak with conviction about what the game is and how it's important is even cooler than new, sexy products for the game. Not that a new edition of the core book wouldn't be a geek orgasm for many of us, but, you know - we don't matter as much as new people. We don't need annotations, we already know how to play the game. And for new people the important bits are the clear argument for why this game is important, and the solid web support in terms of material (such as links to discussions already had) and active interaction. Those things sell the game.

Not that I wouldn't buy a dozen copies of an annotated edition at the drop of the hat, of course. Or an omnibus of the three supplements, or a deluxe edition. I probably wouldn't buy the Italian edition, though. Good ideas, all, still. I don't want to say that an annotated edition wouldn't be invaluable in bringing the game to the current generation, either; as I've said before, many things in the game could be said in different ways now that we have more perspective on the entire matter than ever before. I'm sure that Ron would produce an annotated product that would be very insightful in explaining the very things that have historically been the greatest hurdless in understanding the game. I also adore the whole idea of respecting the original text as a historical artifact and putting any new stuff into annotations; resembles some of the things we've done with our Finnish editions of games.

Thus: if you have to choose, as you probably will, on which of these things to do, I recommend getting the mini-supplement policy and web interfaces up to date, getting art and other resources of the game up to date and making a sweet, updated website or website section for the game. Something that celebrates the history of the game, its influence and the creatively valid heights to which it strives. A new, annotated edition of the game is a great follow-up for those things if resources remain.

And of course, if there's anything you need help on, let us know.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Per Fischer on August 08, 2010, 08:45:39 AM
That sounds great, Ron. Sorcerer remains the game I return to most often, and I'm always prepared to play it. Like Jesse, my Sorcerer books are well used, but mine are still in good shape, but having a volume with annotations would be very helpful indeed. Especially when introducing new players to the game, which today is a matter of the books, tonnes of weblinks and PDF help sheets.

I take it you are only talking about the main rulebook,a nd not the supplements. Let me note that I would also be a happy buyer of an omnibus (Sorcerer + Sword + Soul + Sex), or a revised Sorcerer book plus the three supplements in one volume.

Per


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 09, 2010, 05:29:31 AM
More thoughts.

1. Finnish translation of the annotated version.

2. Annotations to be made available on the website, no charge.

3. Some kind of actual-play emphasis with instant-arrival access on the website.

4. Better links with a focus on independent role-playing publishing, and definitely some help on how to organize a links page so it's fun to visit and not a mess.

5. Art on the website. I need help with this too. I don't have most of the files or originals for the art used in the books.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 09, 2010, 04:33:36 PM
6. T-shirts. Maybe posters.

7. That cool coin-as-business-card the guy had at GenCon. I liked it a lot. But I'd like to use them in some utterly neat and fun way, and not in some stupid 1990s corporate way like "turn it in for a discount" or that even stupider 2000s way like "your tenth cup of coffee is free because we made a huge killing on your first nine and kept you away from our competitor across the street while pretending to be your friend." Which is less stupid only than the people who participate in it.

8. Little plastic/hard-rubber demon creatures. I have one from decades ago and have no idea who made it or for what; he has no lettering on his ass. I wonder how much he costs to make?

9. Serious in-store promotion, especially at the really good game store in Chicago. Probably regularly, with boot camps.

10. On the website, testimony from well-known gaming names? This is kind of cheesy, but the fact is, at GenCon this year even more than usual, people made a point of coming up to the booth and talking about how Sorcerer changed their role-playing, how the game broke open the design community, et cetera. I'm kind of torn between capitalizing on the "names" who are apparently willing to talk like this without prompting and staying focused on the "we are all gamers here, 'names' are meaningless" mind-set. The latter suits me better and will probably win, but money tempts me too.

10'. Don't try to talk me out of the 'names' thing. That will piss me off and make me want to do it after all. I am my only moral compass, thanks. I'm talking to you, Eero. And Raven. And Darcy. And ...

11. Music. Ages and ages ago, Peter Seckler did an electronic song called "Pig Iron Demon" for Sorcerer. Wish I had a copy. So, that aside, I should talk to Marshall or anyone else who might be interested in putting together an album. My God, this is so 1970s. I will never escape that decade. I even owned that sort-of "rock opera Spider-Man" album which was fucking lame. There was a song on it called "It's Such a Groove to be Free." Not kidding.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paiku on August 09, 2010, 06:30:50 PM
Cool, gettin' serious!  For #8, check out the wide range of little rubber demon-like things available from Spawn, see if they don't suit your needs.

I love #11!  I'm a (very) amateur bass player, and I've written exactly 1.0 songs.  I'm sure you can find more capable people to work with, but if I can help at all then do hit me up!

-John


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on August 10, 2010, 05:00:26 PM
6. T-shirts. Maybe posters.

9. Serious in-store promotion, especially at the really good game store in Chicago. Probably regularly, with boot camps.
As to #6, I would love t-shirts. Every time I go to a game convention I make a point of wearing a t-shirt of whatever game I'm "into" the most at the time. I love gaming t-shirts!  :-)

As to #9, which is "the really good game store in Chicago"? I'm from the western suburbs and occasionally venture north to a great game store in Mount Prospect, but I don't know where the good stores are in the city.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 11, 2010, 05:16:05 AM
Chicagoland Games, or the "Dice Dojo," 5550 N. Broadway. The owner's name is J.P. and he's totally into showcasing independent games.

We live in the same area. It is stupid not to get together to play games. Send me an email.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 11, 2010, 08:15:10 AM
Oh holy crow, I keep forgetting to include this one: a mixed drink menu with Sorcerer themed drinks.

For those of you who weren't here back then, the Bartender! (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=8590.0) will provide some back-story and an amusing read. A few of the suggested drinks in that thread were good, but I'm thinking of running a new thread to arrive at some more concoctions to round it out a little, perhaps to include with a thematically-relevant Sorcerer game-idea/one-sheet.

A meet-up in a bar during GenCon, possibly with a reserved room and a pre-event notification to the bartending staff, might be kind of cool. Perhaps just before the DJA Award party?

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Marshall Burns on August 11, 2010, 09:12:18 AM
Ron,

I am 100% interested in doing Sorcerer music. Give me a call sometime.

-Marshall


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Bret Gillan on August 11, 2010, 11:52:30 AM
I love this idea, especially the annotations. Sorcerer is a game I keep revisiting to play and run.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Erik Weissengruber on August 11, 2010, 11:55:08 AM
I make bizzare lo-fi recordings in my basement.  Perhaps if a Sorcerer GM wants to have the soundtrack for incipient psychosis, they might be of use.

Banjo derangement
http://www.archive.org/details/HauntedGrandfatherClock_Erock

Dream gone wrong
http://www.archive.org/details/Goatlegs_DrErock

Industrial/acoustic noise
http://www.archive.org/details/Whitenose_DrErock
[I really gotta pull the hiss off of this track]
- the rhythm track was composed of beating heart sounds from a "help your baby sleep" DVD and mp3s of gibbon cries


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Erik Weissengruber on August 11, 2010, 11:57:18 AM
Actually, playing Whitenose and Haunted Grandfather at the same time is very disturbing


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Motipha on August 11, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
As one of the regulars running Indie games at Chicagoland Games, I totally support the boot camp idea.  hell, I know a number of people who are raring to go for Sorceror, but there's just too many games we haven't played at all that need some loving too...

That aside, All of these idea's are great.  One of our hosts on the podcast plays/writes black metal, so I'm sure he'd be happy to contribute to a musical album.

All of this sounds awesome.  Especially the Finnish translation.  And the list of drinks.  But mostly the Finnish.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 11, 2010, 05:02:42 PM
I found it! I forgot, this is the internet, and you can go clickety-click and find naked chicks Spider-Man: Rock Reflections of a Super-Hero! I gaped, I remembered, I cringed, and then I kind of loosened up about it.

This Comics Alliance blog link (http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/07/07/spider-man-rock-opera-rock-reflections/) not only provides reasonable commentary but also three of the songs! If you don't dance in your seat listening to "Spider-Man," you have no soul. The percussion goes really-fast chickita-chickita-chik at one of the breaks, and the chorus goes "oh na na, whoa-oh-oh na na." It sounds like a cross between Jackson Brown and Jesus Christ Superstar. And check out those bells on Peter's bottoms on the cover!

After thinking about it, I find being trapped in the 70s vastly preferable to the alternative.

Who else had this thing back in the day? No cheating, I mean really owned that record when it was pressed and sold in stores.

Um ... but all you weirdos with your electronic Lovecraft are welcome too. Is there some way to hybridize that stuff with "whoa-oh-oh na na?"

Best, Ron

P.S. You're off-topic! Ahhhh, fuck off, moderator. I saved it with the last sentence.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Courage75 on August 11, 2010, 05:12:23 PM
I'm totally behind a new edition of Sorcerer. I've been wanting to get hard copies of Sorcerer and its supplements for ages, and an updated edition would be a world of awesome that I'd purchase and be eager to put to use ASAP. Maybe even ask Judd Karlman if he wants to contribute some new material for his excellent Dictionary of Mu setting?

A Sorcerer soundtrack would be awesome, as long as it didn't have music that would enhance rather than hinder what goes on at the table. It sounds like a few people are already happy to jump in on this, which is great!

The drinks list sounds alright, although I'd put it as a fairly low priority - a bit of fun to put on the website as a free PDF or some such. Also, I'd make sure there were enough warnings on it to dissuade underage drinking, just in case.

I agree with Eero on the website thing - it is probably the best way to reach new people, which is vital for any product.

As for the merchandising stuff, it sounds cool, but I'd want to see how well it would sell before I committed to something like this. Perhaps start with a small run and see how that goes? To my mind, the emphasis should be on the game.

Anway, that's just my five cents.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Courage75 on August 11, 2010, 05:15:23 PM
A Sorcerer soundtrack would be awesome, as long as it didn't have music that would enhance rather than hinder what goes on at the table. It sounds like a few people are already happy to jump in on this, which is great!
Sorry, that should be "as long as it had music that would enhance rather than hinder..."


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: James_Nostack on August 11, 2010, 07:29:10 PM
Hi Ron,

Regarding the OP, what are your goals?  And what hat are you wearing? 

Because some of the ideas sound like business-man marketing / branding stuff, and other ideas sound like, "Hey I'm a grown-ass gamer dude with a publishing company in my garage - how cool is that?!"  And the goals of gamer dude may not be the goals of business-man dude.  But as general principles  I'd stay away from gimmicky gamer swag, and I'd make sure that you've got your infrastructure in place, and able to scale up, before you make a big push to expand the audience.

Regarding Spider-Man, you have enlightened me.  Holy shit.  On the other hand, a friend just unloaded a box of comics from the mid-70's on me.  The advertisements for Spalding basketballs on the back cover is so ridiculously nostalgic to me. 

Also, I have a theory that the mid-70's monster comics were a big influence on the general vibe of Sorcerer.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 12, 2010, 01:20:49 AM
James, those are good questions and I'm working them out via posting the ideas.

One thing I do know, I'm not trying to expand the audience in conceptual terms. I know perhaps more than any RPG publisher I ever met exactly who the primary audience for Sorcerer is: the role-player who is creatively frustrated without being able to articulate why, and the "why" is raw Narrativist priorities. Basically, the gamer I was in about 1992. I'm not trying to expand beyond that. I'm thinking about ways to bring the game forward to those who are already in the audience zone..

Part of my thinking is also influenced by interacting with a lot of people over the past year who have come into the current design scene at a late stage and don't have much historical perspective on the material. It's weird to say "historical perspective" about something only 15 years old, but then again, I think of 15 years in terms of rock music or comics, and that's significant. Some - not all - of the people in those groups are clearly the same as the audience who've liked it all along, or perhaps, been obsessed with it due to the buttons it finds in them. They'd like the game but can't "get" to it currently in social or internet-buzz terms. I'm working out the many ideas here with this audience in mind as well.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: James_Nostack on August 12, 2010, 12:41:21 PM
The composition on that album cover is pretty sweet.  I like how John Romita's use of a dejected-yet-resolute pose, and the glint of hope-against-hope in Peter Parker's downward gaze, suggests that he is using the mirror to determine if, in fact, he has genitals.

I'll try to have substantive commentary on the specific Adept Press ideas sometime very soon. 


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Erik Weissengruber on August 13, 2010, 04:52:42 AM
Um ... but all you weirdos with your electronic Lovecraft are welcome too. Is there some way to hybridize that stuff with "whoa-oh-oh na na?"

Well, isn't that everyone is still wishing for ... ?

Maybe like 70's-era Crimson: Sabbath heavy with dissonant madness weaving in and out.  Or Ted Nugent with synth breaks.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: James_Nostack on August 13, 2010, 07:38:14 PM
Awesome, Do Now[/b]
* Annotated core book.  This is your core product.  You've had 10 years of experience troubleshooting usability issues.  (I sometimes shudder at how many years of your life must have been spent answering questions based on too-cryptic assertions in the rules.  A stitch in time saves nine.)

* Annotations to be made available on the website, no charge. 
This cuts your market for the annotated version obviously, but hey.

* A long-overdue update of the non-Adept supplement policy.  This is one of the more interesting aspects of Adept Press as a publishing venture.  I'm unclear why it needs overhauling, but if it gets more people designing that's good.

* Better links page

* Droppin' Famous Names.  Like it or not, part of the selling point of Sorcerer is that it's the Velvet Underground & Nico of the indie RPG set, and that's worth mentioning.  Except that it makes you look like a sell-out cheesy self-promoting doofus. 

You Are Mistaken[/b]
Quote
Nor am I inclined to combine [the supplements] with the core book
The seven-point description of the relationship between setting creation and play at the beginning of Sorcerer & Sword, and the relationship between Lore-Humanity-Demons-etc. at the start of Sorcerer's Soul should be included in the core book. 

Quote
Some kind of actual-play emphasis with instant-arrival access on the website.
I don't know what this means.

A Fool and His Money
* T-shirts. Maybe posters.

* That cool coin-as-business-card the guy had at GenCon.

* Little plastic/hard-rubber demon creatures. Dear lord.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paiku on August 23, 2010, 07:33:58 AM
Annotated Core Rulebook
Ron, have you started writing/collecting the annotations*?  I know they're all right here in The Forge... but they're all over The Forge! ;-)  I ask because today I happened to be perusing Organizing A Game > The Ending (pg71-), and remembered our conversation about resolving kickers and "planning" the ending of the game (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=29293.msg273051#msg273051).  It was one discussion I recall in which you said that the rules text is "quite lousy" and that your perspective on the matter has shifted and clarified since you wrote it.  That thread was a big "ah-haah" moment for me, and I'm looking forward to seeing your annotations on this section especially. 

I have an annotated Alice's Adventures In Wonderland (Caroll/Gardner).  In many spots, the annotations are longer than the original text...

Cheers,
-John

* Hmm, the grammarian in me feels that "annotations" may be a false construction, and that simply "notes" should be used.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 23, 2010, 08:34:30 AM
Hi John,

I'm working on them now, along with other things. If you're concerned about my ability to organize and remember all the stuff that's been discussed on the Forge, you shouldn't worry; I think I'm in pretty good shape for that. The "Endings" section is a top candidate, clearly.

One thing, though: I do not plan to stuff the book with every damned little thing ever discussed in this forum or related places. I am staying focused on the purpose of the core book, to explain how to play the game and to inspire its play for maximum enjoyment.

James, one thing that illustrates this point, and is relevant to your post, is that I do not agree that the material in Sorcerer & Sword is suitable for the core book, or if it is, only a little bit. I've come to realize over the years that for many reasons, my own Actual play posting among them, people have conceived of relationship maps (Soul) and certain Stance and scenario prep issues (Sword) as basic Sorcerer technique, and they aren't. Of all the ways to play Sorcerer, what I think of as the best and original-intention way has received the least attention, which is probably my fault.

One way to get to core-book purpose, then, is to bring that way of playing forward as strongly as I can.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paiku on August 23, 2010, 10:53:14 AM
Hi Ron,

I'm not concerned, just very interested.

...people have conceived of relationship maps (Soul) and certain Stance and scenario prep issues (Sword) as basic Sorcerer technique, and they aren't. Of all the ways to play Sorcerer, what I think of as the best and original-intention way has received the least attention, which is probably my fault.

Now that's interesting.  I'm one of those people.  Now I'm trying to imagine what the original-intention way is, given that I've been using R-maps since I started with Sorcerer.  Briefly, what differentiates/what are the hallmarks of the original-intention way of playing?  Stupid question I know, given that the rulebooks are sitting right beside me; but since I read the core text and the first two supplements as one work in three volumes, I can no longer separate them in my mind.

Thanks,
-J


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 23, 2010, 01:55:22 PM
I figured that would be the next question, but as I was writing the post, I said, "That should be another thread one day." And since I'm about eight threads behind, and never mind all the work and publishing things I gotta do. So, um, let me get to it when I can.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Per Fischer on August 23, 2010, 03:40:35 PM
I'm one of those people too.

Per


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Paiku on August 23, 2010, 04:47:53 PM
Ya, and as I posted the question I realized it's a bit off-topic for this thread, too.
No hurry.  My present methods are working for me.

Thanks,
-John


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: The Magus on August 27, 2010, 05:10:52 PM
1. A new version of the core book which preserves all the original text, but includes extensive annotations from my current perspective. It might have new art and cover too.

At first I read this and thought "SELL OUT" as I'd often been told "It's all in the rulebook" but seriously, as someone who came to the indie scene somewhat late I'd welcome this.  I was wondering though how this would mesh with the whole 'Play Sorcerer' project?  What, Ron, do you foresee as the differences?

I think I would like something in the annotations that shows how the system allows the play to emerge, not just from this project but all RPGs.  I was looking over an old copy of the 1e AD&D DMG.  I was shocked at how little of it actually shows this link (actually you're left to figure it yourself).

I'm someone who doesn't RPG as much as I'd like.  Consequently when I look at one of my many unplayed rulesets I don't automatically see how the mechanics influence actual play.  I'd like to plead for all games designers to take that into account.  My Actual Play experiences are limited and while I appreciate that part of learning anything involves making mistakes I'd like some assistance form the designer to minimize this.

Cheers
Piers


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on August 28, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
I'm not trying to expand the audience in conceptual terms. I know perhaps more than any RPG publisher I ever met exactly who the primary audience for Sorcerer is: the role-player who is creatively frustrated without being able to articulate why, and the "why" is raw Narrativist priorities. Basically, the gamer I was in about 1992. I'm not trying to expand beyond that. I'm thinking about ways to bring the game forward to those who are already in the audience zone..
Ron, I know that you have a great sense as to what direction you want Sorcerer to go, but I think you're missing something here. I believe there is also an audience who would appreciate Sorcerer if only it was presented to them in the right way, and I think that expanding the audience would be beneficial to that demographic. I have some players who never felt the creative frustration you mention(or perhaps didn't realize they were experiencing it), but once they were led into Sorcerer they found that it was a great style for them. There must be many similar players without anyone to guide them, and ignoring that potential audience would be unfortunate because it would limit the expansion of the game unnaturally. (Just my opinion.)

A Fool and His Money
* T-shirts. Maybe posters.
* That cool coin-as-business-card the guy had at GenCon.
* Little plastic/hard-rubber demon creatures. Dear lord.
Not so sure about the little demon creatures but I would like to see an expansion of the product line, particularly in the t-shirt area. I don't think you want to "sell out" to commercialism, but t-shirts are a fantastic advertisement for a game and may attract players who have no idea what they are missing.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: jburneko on August 28, 2010, 07:24:08 PM
Ron, I know that you have a great sense as to what direction you want Sorcerer to go, but I think you're missing something here. I believe there is also an audience who would appreciate Sorcerer if only it was presented to them in the right way, and I think that expanding the audience would be beneficial to that demographic.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you.  However, I also believe that this is sort of where the work of myself and Christopher Kubasik come in.  Christopher is still working on Play Sorcerer.  I've dumped most of my thoughts for Sorcerer Unbound on my website but I also occasionally open my word files and tinker around with the text as a How To guide rather than the topical essays I dumped on Story Games and my website.

I think reaching those other potential players requires OTHER people presenting the game (at cons, in play, in texts, whatever).  It's taken me about 10 years to accept that.  I think Ron focusing on revitalizing the mini-supplement "program" is really a good idea.  So many people have picked up Dictionary of Mu who aren't Sorcerer enthusiasts.  It's inspired some of them to dive into the game (and a few others to take that same material elsewhere).  But with enough creative critical mass around the game from more people will draw more players in.

Jesse   


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 28, 2010, 08:12:53 PM
Hiya,

1. Yes, Christopher and Jesse and whoever else is interested, that's your department, for what Marv is talking about. I can't do it. The annotations I have in mind aren't going in that direction at all. They're more of a reflections-clarification thing, with examples or applications simply taken from my own experiences.

2. The t-shirt thing ... well, bear in mind that I can't draw or paint. (I sketch OK, but in a totally amateurish way which is endearing and useful for explanations, but not saleable).  Plus why should I make any money off someone else's work? So getting t-shirts going is a matter of energizing the artists. Raven and Ed Heil are there already (Sorcerer t-shirt (http://www.cafepress.com/+white_sorcerer_tshirt,2024235), Trollbabe t-shirt (http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/trollbabe), why don't you own one?) sure, but I'm talking about opening it up to others who might like to do this.

3. The little demon creatures thing ... man, you have no idea. Little cute hard-rubber or sort-of squishy-plastic demons? Gotta do it!

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: greyorm on August 29, 2010, 01:22:39 AM
[plug] And don't forget the metal-style version (http://www.cafepress.com/ravengear.167889037) (on black, with flames). [/plug]


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 29, 2010, 09:29:53 AM
I was looking for that, but my Cafe Press search didn't find it, and I was afraid it had been discontinued. Glad to see it's still there.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on August 29, 2010, 12:49:42 PM
[plug] And don't forget the metal-style version (http://www.cafepress.com/ravengear.167889037) (on black, with flames). [/plug]
Thanks for the links! I'll admit that I totally forgot about those (and now I have to decide what colors I need...)

Oh, and the mousepad in the store reminds me about the "Sorcerer & Space" supplement that never was...  :-(


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: greyorm on August 30, 2010, 05:01:24 AM
Ron, I don't know why, but it refuses to come up in the search results for me, either.

Marv, there's a tile coaster in the store that is the actual for-real cover for the "Sorcerer & Space" book, Mike paid me for it and everything. He just never published. And, man, did it sound cool. Makes me sad.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on August 30, 2010, 02:25:52 PM
Marv, there's a tile coaster in the store that is the actual for-real cover for the "Sorcerer & Space" book, Mike paid me for it and everything. He just never published. And, man, did it sound cool. Makes me sad.
Agreed. I would have bought one in a heartbeat!


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Ron Edwards on August 30, 2010, 03:31:41 PM
I think something got miscommunicated. The Sorcerer & Space tile coaster is available for purchase (http://www.cafepress.com/ravengear.6758087).

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: Finarvyn on August 30, 2010, 05:42:43 PM
Sorry if I wasn't clear ... I would have bought the Sorcerer and Space book if I could have found it. I saw the coaster.


Title: Re: Adept Press thoughts and projects for Sorcerer
Post by: The Dragon Master on September 01, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
Can't afford it right now, but I'm definitely buying these. :-) I'm just picturing having 4 or 5 different styles of these mix-n-matched around my house.  I'm glad I saw that Lumpley was posting on the forums or I'd have missed this thread.