I'd like to use game design theory and principles to build a motivation structure for Real World applications.
(The short of this post is that I need better reward cycles. Somehow games blast mine out of the water.)
For example, I think there's a lot of potential to use game design principles to approach education. People hate school, but the average WoW player plays 20 hours a week and pays for the opportunity to do so. However, WoW used to have a ton of grinding- what if you could use a similar approach to entice students to study?
I think that there's an insane amount of potential here. I'm not kidding. WoW and other games have caused divorces. My friend plays 60 hours a week of various games- he's brilliant, how the heck did these games manage to dominate him so?
In November 2010 I began a 2 month project to upgrade my high school courses by completing 4 courses (Chem, Physics, Math and English). I'm really bad at studying- I've NEVER studied in all my school days. I game a lot though- I got to thinking that a lot of games are more or less achievement simulators, of the "surrogate activity" sort.
I tried to build a study structure based on WoW, Torchlight, D&D, and other games. The primitive system is as follows:
If these games are achievement simulators, they're acting as "good jobs." According to studies:
A good job:
1. stretches a person without defeating him
2. provides clear goals (SMART: specific, measurable, attainable, reasonable, tangible or something)
3. provides unambiguous feedback
4. provides a sense of control
Whatever system I use would have to challenge me- I could use constant testing for the feedback per subject. I could run ahead of the curriculum to stretch myself. I use weekly goal cards which I can collect to make my goals very clear and specific. I also have a degree of control by rushing ahead- I'm not quite under the control of a teacher's pacing.
I had a poster to track my weekly hours-studying quota, by subject. On it I was also a weekly progress quota for each subject- usually one unit. It took a few weeks of practice but I managed about 40+ hours, on target, every week.
Next to it I had another poster with card slots in it- on each card was the name of a unit that I had to complete. I could see the entirety of my future problems all together. There was also a box, by subject, for "achievements." Each time I completed a unit I added that index card to the little box for that subject- these little cards accumulated as I went.
I also gave myself a little index card for every solid hour I spent studying. I seriously struggle to study- these were my little crappy rewards, 1 per hour, to dig in. After counting the cards I ended up with about 300-400 hours over those 2 months. I finished my classes with 96, 95, 92 and 80. To get into my university program i need about a 76% average.
I've never studied before, I couldn't believe that this cheesy scheme worked.
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I'd like feedback on ways to improve or change this system to make it more compelling. My specific problem is this:
In these games you're rewarded for your efforts in concrete ways that measurably benefit you and make you better at what you're doing. It's a great reward cycle. However, my study system's reward cycle is lacking. The little index cards aren't working as well this semester. I need a better reward mechanism/cycle- I've hardly gotten anything done in weeks, which makes sense since the rewards are lousy. I need a better reward system.
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Any other feedback is also welcome. I posted this here because I think I might actually get useful ideas/feedback here.
Nate
Congratulations on its success thus far!
Off the top of my head, one major reward cycle you're not simulating is the MMO aspect of the source games you cite. A major component of MMO rewards is that, not only do you level up or get the Spatula of Hoodwinking +12 or gain the skill to craft lime green hair dye, but you also get to show it off and have your skill recognized by other players. Some games have explicit leaderboards, others just let you gawk at the color-coordinated Level 99 elf chick next to you, but in all cases there's a strong social component.
If your motivation is flagging again it may be time to see who else you can convince to join in with you.
You might want to check out chorewars (http://www.chorewars.com/), as a similar approach.
In terms of real world applications I think the legal system and labour/'capitalist' systems in real life are like crappily made games. I sometimes wonder if people play wow etc not for fun gameplay, but since they actually slot into a life, with social connection, that is actually ordered. One where the capitalist dream of anyone can make it to the top isn't simply bullshit marketing, but actually the case. While in real life people bullshit themselves they can 'get a job', when, unless they have mind control powers, they have no such capacity - the game that is entrenched does not empower them that way at all. I'll quote an author I like "Whenever somebody says, "You're lucky to have a job," what they are literally saying is "You're economically powerless – be thankful!"". Of course in real life a designer can't just make resources and currency poof out of thin air like wow does to power it's wish forfillment, but since plants grow food in a relatively predictable manner that can be designed around, currency can atleast grow on trees, even if you can't make it poof into existance from nothing.
Just thoughts to broaden the spectrum of possible real world applications.
Hey Nate,
Quote from: Natespank on March 10, 2011, 08:07:13 PM
However, my study system's reward cycle is lacking. The little index cards aren't working as well this semester. I need a better reward mechanism/cycle- I've hardly gotten anything done in weeks, which makes sense since the rewards are lousy. I need a better reward system.
You're in the deep end now, man. Two books I recommend.
Reality Is Broken, by Jane McGonigal. And
Punished By Rewards, by Alfie Kohn.
Paul
QuoteReality Is Broken, by Jane McGonigal. And Punished By Rewards, by Alfie Kohn.
If I only had time to read one of them, which would you suggest?
Read the first third of Punished By Rewards, skim around through the rest, and then switch to Reality is Broken.
Paul
Hiya,
This topic is extremely interesting, but it needs to be honed a little to fit the requirements of the forum. Please post a link to an external rules document of some kind.
Best, Ron
External rules document... let's see... does this count?
My original idea, from November:
http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/11/games-as-achievement-simulators.html (http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/11/games-as-achievement-simulators.html)
minor refinement
http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/11/wow-and-little-goals.html (http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/11/wow-and-little-goals.html)
Actual System in play, old version before updates
http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/12/old-and-new-time-budgeting.html (http://projectsettlingdust.blogspot.com/2010/12/old-and-new-time-budgeting.html)
I'l working out the kinks in a current version. The structure is based on a few system diagrams I recently drew, I can link to it as soon as I complete it.
Here's the most current version I'm using:
http://projectcloudbuilder.blogspot.com/ (http://projectcloudbuilder.blogspot.com/)
Beautiful! Thanks.
Best, Ron
Games are optional. Work seems mandatory.
I've just started my first full time job, and it's absolutely grinding my will to live. I feel as if I don't have any say in my life. I get up at 6am and I get home at 6pm, absolutely wrecked. But I have to do it; this whole series of events is forcing me to get a real job. Games, on the other hand, are frivolous. They're a time sink and a money sink and the whole endeavour is just something I'm doing for the heck of it. It's like, no matter how messed up the world is, I've going to spend my Saturday afternoon pretending to be Batman. How could that not be MY decision?
The reality, of course, is that I do have a choice about my job. I found it, I secured it, and I make the second-by-second choice to stay there instead of playing basketball. Unfortunately, I've also fallen into "bad faith" by believing I'm forced to be at work. Those moments when I remember I do have a say, I feel a little less like an object, like some piece of crap kicked around by the world.
I'm at work because I want to be, damn it, and I'm going to clock off and go home wrecked because I've made that decision. This brings a lot of psychological stuff into play - pride, ego, responsibility. All more interesting than my earlier sense of grinding predetermination.
We always choose what we do, it's just easier to identify that a choice has been made in some activities. Games are so obviously frivolous that the outside world CAN'T be forcing them on me. They must be something I really, truly want to do.
Try reminding people that they've chosen to be at work or university or wherever. They'll rethink that decision, and (presumably) reaffirm it. Which is to say, Sartre is Smartrer.
QuoteWe always choose what we do, it's just easier to identify that a choice has been made in some activities. Games are so obviously frivolous that the outside world CAN'T be forcing them on me. They must be something I really, truly want to do.
That's true.
There's a motivation structure in work and in games. In the case of work it takes the threat of homelessness and the incentive of pay to bring you in- and, usually, people do it. There's a concrete, hour-by-hour reward (though often NOT pay-by-quality mechanics). It mostly works by punishment.
Games, by contrast, can't easily punish you for not playing. Many people will pay to play them, and sacrifice other activities. My D&D group keeps cancelling their other activities to play, and one is arguing with her boss so she can get sundays free for out weekly games. Games succeed brilliantly with their motivation structures.
I think at first I was mistaken to use WoW as a model for a study schedule. WoW rewards you for investment- not for accumulated ability. In the case of school specifically, you're rewarded mostly for ability and performance- with a lot of investment as well.
I think games like Warcraft 2/3, Starcraft, Quake Live, and other "skill" games might pose better models. I'm starting with Quake Live.
Well there is soimne research indicating that rewards don't really work. An experiment in the UK giving students money or what amounts to toys to study was abandoned after it nhad no discernable effect. I think that the "reward" structure that applies in most games is the ability to exert control over your own actions and to make your own decisions - precisely the experience we don't get in school or in work.
The problem with with happysmellyfish's argument is that you can rationalise any formm of compulsion that way. If you were mugged at knife-point you could choose to say that you voluntarily gave up your wallet rather than be stabbed, but I think most people would experience that as coercion. Much the same applies to most employment; you work or you starve, that's not exactly a free choice.
QuoteThe problem with with happysmellyfish's argument is that you can rationalise any formm of compulsion that way. If you were mugged at knife-point you could choose to say that you voluntarily gave up your wallet rather than be stabbed, but I think most people would experience that as coercion. Much the same applies to most employment; you work or you starve, that's not exactly a free choice.
You're right, the whole argument rests on accepting existentialism's claims about free will. (For what it's worth, Sartre would just say "Stiff crap, you always have a choice. Stop making excuses.") But that's not really what I was bringing up. Rather, my point was that because games are so clearly disconnected from daily necessity, they are a rare moment to reassert ourselves as decision makers. I believe this sense of meaning-making is hugely rewarding in itself, and something missing from most work places.
QuoteI think that the "reward" structure that applies in most games is the ability to exert control over your own actions and to make your own decisions - precisely the experience we don't get in school or in work.
You seem to be agreeing with me here.
On the whole "work as game" front, I can't help but feel our society is a little impoverished these days. We used to have a whole bunch of systems - apprenticeship, craft, masterpiece, tutelage - that made the process exciting and meaningful. They're just ideals, sure, and olden-day workplaces would have been hellish places. But the ideals still exist: as guides, treasures, everything they always were. It's a way to make work fulfilling.
I guess in practical terms, what I mean is you could possibly research old fashioned ideas about work, before we all became alienated from our labour. There might be some proven motivational tools there. At a guess, I'd say the master-apprentice relationship is super important.
Well, I'm agreeing with your second last paragraph, and disagreeing with everything else. And it is fair to say that there may be structures in pre-industrialised forms that play a more positive roll, although I would agree that you shouldn't get carried away with over-romanticising them.
I suppose what I was trying to say is that there is a big difference between doing something you really choose to do, and doing something becuase you have to do it. There is a much higher success rate in adult education than in school education, because adults who return to education usually do so with clear goals and personal motives, rather than experiencing school as an imposition over which they have no control and to which they do not actively consent.
So in this sense I agree that is worth bearing in mind the bigger picture, even if you struggling with something you are obliged to do here and now. But I just don't accept the rhetoric that everything and anything is a choice to which we consent; other humans are indeed capable of imposing compulsion, and for most of us that is the dominant experience of life and work, for which escapism serves as a substitute.
This game... it's a little strange. I'm not sure I understand the system as written. I'll start with the diagram ( http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xGAXGUTfggI/TX8ydQMLtvI/AAAAAAAAANQ/UPuM4xSynPU/s1600/Nate%2527s%2Bschool%2BSystem%2BDiagram.png ) though as that seems fairly straightforward.
1. There's no endgame. As far as I can tell, you just go round and round the arrows until you die.
2. There's no differentiation between internal scoring (that is, testing yourself) and external scoring (writing a final exam) but I'm not sure yet if that's a bug or a feature. Let's just say it seems worth a closer look.
3. I'm not sure if I see how Score and Feedback are distinct steps; hopefully you can shed some light on what you see as distinguishing them.
4. There seems to be two distinct paths to Kicking Ass -- Studying, and (eventually) via Testing-Scoring-Feedback. This is a little weird; I might be tempted to just grind Studying and never bother with the other route.
5. On the other hand, you can also go from Studying straight to I Suck, which I don't think I understand at all.
Cheers,
Roger
QuoteWell there is soimne research indicating that rewards don't really work. An experiment in the UK giving students money or what amounts to toys to study was abandoned after it nhad no discernable effect. I think that the "reward" structure that applies in most games is the ability to exert control over your own actions and to make your own decisions - precisely the experience we don't get in school or in work.
Sort of a Nietzsche Will to Power thing- we love exerting power, we hate being powerless.
What rewards are you talking about though? Cash? How much? How good were the toys? If I got $100 for every 1% I got on a test, I'd study my ass off and skip work to do it. I'd blow off my friends for that kind of money (short term). Could you elaborate? That seems like an interesting test.
As for power-over-life/surroundings being a reward, remember old school D&D? as you level up you can reform landmasses, teleport, geas... you get massive power over your environment! power is a great reward! Any ways you can think of to integrate this more into a system?
Quote1. There's no endgame. As far as I can tell, you just go round and round the arrows until you die.
I sort of agree.
There's no endgame in competitive RTS or FPS games either- unless you consider world championships an endgame, which seems legit. You do loop round and round the arrows- until you get to your arbitrarily determined goal-skill-level, or get bored.
In my case, I'd like to pursue my abilities in my study field (science/engineering) as far as I can, so a lack of an endgame doesn't bother me.
Would you recommend adding one?
Quote2. There's no differentiation between internal scoring (that is, testing yourself) and external scoring (writing a final exam) but I'm not sure yet if that's a bug or a feature. Let's just say it seems worth a closer look.
I don't differentiate in the system. I think both are reward opportunities, both are worth grinding for, and both are motivationally significant. One just punishes you for failure- maybe in that case I should differentiate... there is an extra reinforcer to work hard on those tests.
Quote3. I'm not sure if I see how Score and Feedback are distinct steps; hopefully you can shed some light on what you see as distinguishing them.
Arguable. When I score myself in games I almost never get perfect. The reason I separate score and feedback is because I think of them as separate activities- scoring is mechanical and objective, feedback is a comparison about how I did versus how tough the work was, and a comparison to how I did last time. The result of that subjective analysis is what I call "feedback."
Quote4. There seems to be two distinct paths to Kicking Ass -- Studying, and (eventually) via Testing-Scoring-Feedback. This is a little weird; I might be tempted to just grind Studying and never bother with the other route.
Go for it. Until this year I skipped practice problems and self-tests, only grinding studying. I usually get 95% + on math tests. It's fine!
It's just that to get a feeling of "Kicking Ass" from studying is tricky, so it's really hard to motivate myself to do it on it's own... :( Great when it does work.
Quote5. On the other hand, you can also go from Studying straight to I Suck, which I don't think I understand at all.
For example, yesterday in Physics I got completely lost in what the teacher was saying. I have only the vaguest idea what I was supposed to have learned yesterday. I consider that a "straight to I suck" moment. Rather than jumping into test problems, I think it's time to assess what went wrong and strategize about how to get unstuck and how to avoid getting stuck in the future.
Great comments so far guys!
Actually, your mentioning the endgame reminded me of something.
I think there needs a more explicit goal system throughout. Otherwise it's easy to get bogged down in a particular and not progress through a unit/subject.
Quote from: Natespank on March 17, 2011, 02:15:50 PM
What rewards are you talking about though? Cash? How much? How good were the toys? If I got $100 for every 1% I got on a test, I'd study my ass off and skip work to do it. I'd blow off my friends for that kind of money (short term). Could you elaborate? That seems like an interesting test.
Really, read the Alfie Kohn.
Paul
QuoteReally, read the Alfie Kohn
In Calgary bookstores that title is unavailable, though I can get the other.
It's at least ten or twelve years old. But it's a very well known and influential book. Try the library?
Paul
Anyway, I got Reality is Broken. Very strong opening. I feel slighted- she preemptively stole my idea.
Anyway, after running this "game" for a few weeks in it's current form I can make some notes:
1- The system is obviously gamist.
I'm not exploring some theme, or roleplaying a good student. I'm trying to win. Obvious, but nice to state explicitly.
2- Importance of Goals
I need to restructure the system to allow for various levels and types of goals. The reason that 1 hour of study deserves it's own goal for me is because it's an achievement for me. However, the same goal system ought to be expanded and adapted to handle many goals.
I can replace the single large loop with various smaller, similar loops allowing for various levels of goals- for example, complete a question, complete an assignment, master a unit, master a subject, get a degree, get a job... Also need to include more explicit feedback/progress markers.
In a way, the game I'm building would be a game of setting and meeting arbitrary goals adapted to a specific purpose. The Goal Game. I'll use it for a lot of things if I can get it up and going at full tilt.
3- Feedback System
In the book Reality is Broken, the author describes Tetris's feedback system: it's auditory, as you hear lines clear. It's visual, as you see lines vanish and drop. It's intellectual, as you see your score climb and the difficulty increase. She describes this as a sensitive and strong feedback system.
There's no concrete reward for playing Tetris. I would like to incorporate a more visceral feedback system. I wish I could incorporate sound effects into my test taking, that would be powerful.
I may add a feedback chart showing my "score" as I go through assignments and exercises- track it on a big sheet just to make it visible, maybe simply grade from A-F.
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I'd like to encase much of this in a rules/reward/system structure as I can, rather than using all this as a directive. I should be able to write a game manual for this.
Look what I found... there's a ton of this stuff around!
http://www.khanacademy.org/about
I've revised my study game. I call it the ProjekT for now ;)
I abandoned my Quake Live model: Quake Live is a sort of multifaceted project where a player attempts to execute the perfect matchup against the highest level opponents. It's many components may be approached in any order- aiming, movement, map control, dodging, weapon mastery, map awareness, value of various items... All separate aspects which each need work, and can be approached in any order.
It's similar to game design where the goal might be to build the "perfect" game that runs as intended :)
Study doesn't work like that. I find that, as far as games go, it's better to model early single player, level-by-level games like Doom, Quake 1&2, Double Dragon, Mario Bros, and even NES Zelda.
The aspects I liked when I decided this:
-Single Player- won't require me to hustle up a posse to help me.
-Specific, long term goal (rescue princess/kill bad guy)
-Broken down into discrete, manageable chunks (levels)
-No mid-game save function. If you die, you restart the level. In other words, you progress when you consistently perform, and mistakes make you restart. Consistency is IMPORTANT.
-Each level is "further" than the last- you're closer to the end goal and each level gets harder and demands more. Ascending difficulty, and therefore, worth.
-Constant feedback in the form of health stats or success/death messages.
I'm adding an achievement system to this structure as well to allow more free-form progress.
************************************************************************************8
Game Manual- The ProjekT
1-Assemble about 1000 flash cards. It sounds like a lot, but it's really only 5 packs of 200 and will cost $5-$10.
1a- For bonus points, divide that 1000 cards into 5 or more separate colors. I have blue, green, yellow, pink and red. Each represents a subject of study/goals, and you can also assign 1 or 2 colors to "extra valuable" achievements. I use "gold" cards for these.
2- Set aside an area for "goal/achievement" cards and their categories; Set aside another area to organize these cards after you've "won" them. For me, I store unmet goal cards in 4 envelopes next to my computer, tacked to a cork board. My "achieved" goal cards go into a little organizer I found at Walmart that has little card-sized compartments and slots to name each compartment- it cost about $15-$20 for both parts.
3- Peruse your study future. Decide which Study guides you'll use, what textbook chapters you'll read, which books/parts of books you'll study, what essays you'll write, and which videos you'll watch. Everything you'll utilize to help you through your project.
4- Break each resource into discrete chunks. It's easiest to explain this by example-
I separated my textbook into units, then chapters. It's not a good book, tis all I could do.
I separated my study guides into Units, then chapters, then topics within the chapter.
I separated my assignments into individual projects, and if large, I broke them down into discrete chunks.
5- Create Goal Cards out of the index cards. To prevent clutter, it's okay to combine some cards into macro-cards. On each goal card write one or more chunks from Step 4.
I have a separate card for each unit in my textbook, color coded by subject. On the card is written the name and number of each chapter.
I have a separate card for each chapter of my study guides, and on each I write the name and number of every topic within the unit that's important enough for the table of contents.
Each listing is a separate goal/achievement- they're written on the same cards to save space and simplify comprehension of your efforts.
6- Add to this pile of goals, keep organizing by category. I have achievement cards such as
"8 Hours Studied/1 day"
"16 Hours studied/2 days"
"100 Hours Studied!" [per subject]
"500 Hours Studied!" [Total, and by subject]
"Successfully meet with study group"
"Cook for myself every day for a week"
You can use this system to do a lot more than just study.
7- You will end up with a massive pile of goal index cards. Set em aside, organized in the spot you prepared. As you work on whatever project you're working on- study in this case- these cards represent the entirety of your quest, broken down into small, discrete, manageable chunks. Every single time you complete the tast described on a card, put a star or a checkmark on that card or next to the entry on the card. When every item on a card is checked/starred, put the card in your "achievement" pile. Make sure the achievement pile's visible from your work area.
That means that after you finish Chapter 2 you get to check off each topic you cover, each practice set you finish, and each test you write. Then you get to do the same for the study guide. When the card's done, add it to your achievement cards. This represents that you've concretely finished a discrete task to your satisfaction. The task had a specific goal (ex, learn the Product Rule of Derivatives and it's proof), it was discrete, challenging, and represents an addition to your abilities.
I'd advise you to ensure you know the subject before checking off a subject. As for exercises, if you make mistakes during them, redo them until you can do them all- then redo the entire set. You haven't earned the mark until you can consistently finish a problem SET without error. It requires consistency.
8- Over time you'll amass a shitload of cards. As this happens, begin using "higher value" cards to represent collections of smaller value cards. For example, I earn one index card for every hour I study. They amassed, so I started tracking multiple hours per card to save space- each hour is still an achievement- and then I replace stacks of cards with colored cards reading "50 Hours!" or "100 Hours!"
I just earned my 3rd "100 Hours!!" card :D They're on the "gold" cards I mentioned above. These cards remind me- I managed to study a subject for a HUNDRED HOURS. That's significant.
When I got my 100 Hours card I discarded my 25 Hours card and 50 hours card. The 100 Hours card supercedes it.
The idea is twofold:
1- Lots of cards takes up lots of space. What a pain.
2- When you have 10,000 cards you can't comprehend what you've done. A smaller number of "more valuable" cards is more comprehensible- you can easily understand exactly what you've done.
9- When you finish off either the last task card, or you finish your major goal, you "win." Pat yourself on the back and frame your marks statement. You earned it. What's your next goal going to be??
I like this, and the fact it seems to be working for you is a great sign. I just wanted to add the probably obvious suggestion that this could be applied to an activity like "Financial Security" pretty easily.
Of course there are cards like "$100 in the bank" and "$2,000 in the bank".
But also other things like "Went the whole day without buying anything!" or "Got a rise at work!"
QuoteOf course there are cards like "$100 in the bank" and "$2,000 in the bank".
But also other things like "Went the whole day without buying anything!" or "Got a rise at work!"
After I'm done with school I'm going to adapt the system to all sorts of projects.
Writing, game design, exercise, eating well...
Hi Nate,
http://projects.metafilter.com/3055/Habit-Judo
I just came across this today, and thought you might be interested. It uses a point system and color/belt system to give you the feeling of "leveling up".
Chris
Thanks man, I'll peruse it tomorrow afternoon :)