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Inactive File => Endeavor: Game Chef 2011 => Topic started by: zircher on July 15, 2011, 12:02:54 PM



Title: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 15, 2011, 12:02:54 PM
Sigh, Rose has done it again and her father can stand it no more.  As Rose's closest friends, can you comfort her, mend the damage, and perhaps pursue your own agenda?
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 15, 2011, 03:49:05 PM
Started brain storming, mixing components into a witch's brew and spoon feeding it to Google.  It said, "Here is the Shakespeare play that you have never whose main character matches what you wanted to create down to the name.  Would you like to read the manga?"

My brain 'sploded.  :-)
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 15, 2011, 03:54:32 PM
...never seen....   How the heck do you edit posts on the Forge? 

Perfect is not the pen that I hold.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Hans Chung-Otterson on July 15, 2011, 04:15:42 PM
You can't edit posts on the Forge. The idea of that kind of bent my brain at first, but I've come to appreciate it.

...and what play are you talking about?


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 15, 2011, 04:53:50 PM
As You Like It (http://www.mangashakespeare.com/titles/as_you_like_it.html), I actually had a list of alternate ingredients that I wanted to include for theme reasons like romantic comedy, love triangle, Rose, etc.  Google said, "Here's a story about a daughter named Rose (Rosalind) that has been exiled."  Cool.  :-)
--
TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: WPTunes on July 15, 2011, 06:09:43 PM
You can't edit posts on the Forge. The idea of that kind of bent my brain at first, but I've come to appreciate it.

I quite like that there's a button for a marquee tag.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Jonathan Walton on July 15, 2011, 07:48:21 PM
Rosalind is one of my favorite Shakespearean heroines.  Her epilogue is badass.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: devlin1 on July 15, 2011, 08:40:02 PM
Rosalind is one of my favorite Shakespearean heroines.  Her epilogue is badass.
Indeed. I think she'll be popping up in one form or another in quite a few submissions.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 16, 2011, 03:27:18 PM
More brain storming...

Rose is an NPC around which the story session revolves.  While she could be in every scene, it is not a requirement since it is quite possible that some players at the table may be plotting behind her back.  (Tis better this way my dear rose.)  The setting can be historical, fantasy, modern, or futuristic, the troupe decides this beforehand.  It's even possible that Rose may be a Rosalind, a Gypsy Rose, or a Rose by any other name.

After the setting is determined, the nature of her crime or banishment must be worked out.  Traditionally, the father exiles the daughter, but this can also vary with the story that the troupe wants to tell.  Perhaps she's fleeing a crime, escaping an arranged marriage, searching for her lost brother against the wishes of her father.

After the setting for the session has been determined, the players create the characters which are the friends of Rose.  However, each player is dealt a card face down and this is their secret agenda.  Hearts means that the player is secretly in love with Rose, diamonds mean that you're in it for the money, clubs charges you with defending and protecting Rose, and a spade means that you're secretly working for her down fall (whether out of jealousy, scorn, or perhaps on her father's orders.)
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Nathan P. on July 17, 2011, 05:56:03 AM
I like where this is going.

That is all.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 17, 2011, 02:23:57 PM
Thanks, I've got some other play mechanics worked out in my head, but still mulling over 'scoring' since I'd like to keep this GMless if possible.  I think it would be a hoot if the 'winner' of the session got to write the epilog and wrap up the story that was told.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 17, 2011, 04:16:30 PM
Since I'm not a game design pro, I thought I'd grab a little Jeepform action and see what happens.  Hopefully that will help me to gel some of my design bits that I have in my head.  Of course, anyone is welcome to copy these Jeep Truths and seek your own answers for your Game Chef entries.

from http://jeepen.org/dict/ (http://jeepen.org/dict/)...

Jeep Truths, for Gamewrights and Game Masters

1.Restrictions foster creativity.
The brain storm/setting creation session at the beginning of play sets the main players and world in motion.  A dark fantasy setting would preclude space ships and androids.  Determine Rose's troubles and you offer a path for solutions and twists.  Also, when a character plays their hand, their natures and forsworn weakness are the elements they mush use to advance the story.

2.You basically cannot go wrong by letting people succeed (which doesn't necessitate doing so).
A player's hand tells them what but now how, success is a measure of using what you have been dealt even if it a negative trait.  They can choose their own level of success and there is a strategy in that when combined with your fate/secret agenda.

3.You should always have a message or premise. If you ask yourself "What is this game about?" and find yourself answering with long description of how you think it will be played think again.
The Trouble with Rose is about players colaborating to tell a 'Shakespearean' tale of romance and betrayal.

4.Setting does not make up for story. Assume that you are the only one that thinks your setting is cool.
Given that the players can pick a setting from a list or create their own, I hope to avoid this pitfall while still presenting an interesting game to play.  The play is the thing, even character creation is part of the world building.

5.Assume your players can handle difficult form.
Indeed, in resolving their hand, the player is wide open to assemble and describe the scene as long as it is not vetoed.

6.Assume your players can understand complex stories.
By it's very nature, the players are creating a complex story in five parts.  Nature, forsworn aspects, and their secret agendas will drive them to tell a twisted tale and thwart their opponents while moving the story forward.

7.Assume your players are interested and motivated to do the best possible thing with your game.
Part of the design is that the players will hopefully be motivated since they will have buy in during setting and scene creation.

8.A game that stinks should be ended quickly, and then discussed.
I agree, and if words permit, there will be a section in the game design notes for that.  I've already tasked some of my friends to help me play test this and see if there are any pit falls I may be able to avoid.

9.A story can often benefit from having less lead characters than actual characters. There is no rule that says everyone should have equal direct impact on the story or equal screen-time.
Interestingly enough, there is only one 'lead' character.  Rose is an NPC that is controlled by all the players at the table.  Players have the power to bring in second characters and even exclude Rose from the spot light.  This is a common story element used by Shakespeare.

10.Shorter games are often better than longer; it is okay to end a game after three hours (or less), even if you've, publicly, estimated the time to six.
Playtesting will hopefully give me a better feel for the duration of the game.  The intention is to create a table top game that can be played in one sitting while still creating a five act 'play'.

11.Always make sure that the players know what they are playing, and where the story should be going.
Between setting creation, character creation, and their secret agenda, players will have their direction.  But, no plan survives contact with Rose and her friends.  Twists and turns are to be meat and potatoes of game play as the players seek to guide the story to their favor.

12.A game can be played several times with the same players playing the same characters.
Replayability for The Trouble with Rose should be extremely high since even the very nature of Rose and her exile can change from game to game.  On the other hand, you can use a pre-determined setting and pre-gen characters to jump start a game which can still be played uniquely.

13.Keeping player number low and keeping players close together, such as in the same room, enables you to do cooler things with the form, helps keeping a unified vision and facilitates telegraphing.
The game is round robin story telling with a tale that builds on each twist.

14.The most important purpose of a story is to facilitate player interaction.
While characters can be pulled into a scene, the main interaction is going to be how to play off of the action of the other characters and perhaps to guess their secret agenda and either work towards that or as a foil.

15.Don't be afraid of patch-work stories.
(Laughing out loud) I'm counting on it!
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Vulpinoid on July 17, 2011, 04:39:28 PM
I was actually reading your post here as you were writing your response to my post over on Praxis.

It'll be interesting to compare our final products.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 17, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
Aye, we're certainly on the same wavelength.  :-)
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 18, 2011, 01:54:16 PM
Gah!  My appendix for expanded setting descriptions is 891 words.  Yeah, started working on the text at the front and the back.  Rules up front and the appendix following.

I see the Grim Reaper's editting pen in my future.  :-)
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 19, 2011, 10:07:51 PM
First draft, you can find the PDF here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1gvfeoig4y84bb3 (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1gvfeoig4y84bb3)

Please let me know what I got right or wrong.  I plan to do some play testing this Saturday night.

As always, any feedback (good or bad) is welcome.
--
TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Hans Chung-Otterson on July 19, 2011, 11:37:05 PM
Hey Todd,

I like it! Seems like fun. A few questions/comments:

1. You say the base rules "allow for five" to play, and then give an option for six or seven. What about 3 or 4--is that covered by the base rules? Does "allow for five" mean "three to five" or "exactly five", or something else?

2. What are the criteria for allowing a player to keep their tile? As it stands, I read it as, basically, if the other players enjoy your narration in a kind of vague collective sense (not trying to provoke by using "vague" here, just trying to communicate clearly how it actually seems to me as I read the text), then you get to keep your tile. Is that your intention?

3. In the play example, it seems that the structure of the game is 1 tile played per scene, but that rule (if indeed it is a rule) is never made explicit.

4. I wish there was more assistance for scene framing than just "make a scene!"

Hm, I think that's it. Good luck in your playtest.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 20, 2011, 04:42:33 AM
I like it! Seems like fun. A few questions/comments:
Thanks!

Quote
1. You say the base rules "allow for five" to play, and then give an option for six or seven. What about 3 or 4--is that covered by the base rules? Does "allow for five" mean "three to five" or "exactly five", or something else?
Good catch three to five is the intent, play test will hopefully reveal if as few as two is possible.

Quote
2. What are the criteria for allowing a player to keep their tile? As it stands, I read it as, basically, if the other players enjoy your narration in a kind of vague collective sense (not trying to provoke by using "vague" here, just trying to communicate clearly how it actually seems to me as I read the text), then you get to keep your tile. Is that your intention?
Exactly,  I'll see what I can do about clearing that up.

Quote
3. In the play example, it seems that the structure of the game is 1 tile played per scene, but that rule (if indeed it is a rule) is never made explicit.
Duly noted. Yes, it should say, 1 tile per scene.

Quote
4. I wish there was more assistance for scene framing than just "make a scene!"
Yeah, I was worried about that, I still have a few hundred words left to expand on scene framing.

Quote
Hm, I think that's it. Good luck in your playtest.
Thanks again for the prompt reply and feedback!
--
TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 20, 2011, 07:26:23 PM
Updated version with the above changes and a some better graphical elements.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ebxy1w83ikhn8t7 (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ebxy1w83ikhn8t7)

Can't see much changing until more proofing and playtesting is done.

If someone is gung-ho to give this a try before the end of GC'11, I'd love to hear your experiences.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 21, 2011, 06:39:45 AM
Cross posted from another forum...

"I don't get how the domino actually controls the nature of the game. I'm going to guess that the pips refer to the list of aspects that the player established earlier--but it's not made clear enough in the document."

That's exactly how it's done. But, I'll see about making that clearer.

"I also think more attention needs to be paid to how the players develop the nature of the exile. The rules just say "At the start of the game, the players decide the setting for their play. In this collaborative phase, they work together to determine the time, location, and events that lead up to Rose being exiled."

How much detail is expected at this point? Is the game based on the events after the exile? Or is it based on the events leading up to the exile?"


The 'technical' answer would be, "Add as much detail as needed." It can be as short as a few sentences or the players can act out the whole scene leading up to the exile/banishment/flight. As originally thought, the play begins after exile, but I don't see why the players could not begin at the brink and start the play off with a bang.

"I'm also a bit confused as to exactly how much information the other players can set up in a given scene that's not their own."

The blurb I added for scene framing in v1.1 might clear that up a bit. The players have a lot of power in scene creating. In traditional game terms, they're each a GM charged with telling a story.

On the other hand the audience (the players who are not center stage) have the option of adding more to the story. But, they are limited to embellishments (color text), consequences (repercussions), and perhaps some minor tweaking and twisting of the plot (for comedic value or perhaps to help set up the next scene.) It's very much a reactionary bit of stage craft.

While the audience is not given veto power for the narrative, they could withhold a tile for scoring purposes if the player goes off on a tangent.

"Actually, I just had a thought about that. If the player who's turn it is draws a domino with a 2/4 and uses the Aspects numbered 2/4 on his list to set up the main scene, why not have every other player be limited to the aspects numbered 2/4 on their lists to further that particular scene or add to it? That way there's some direction for the players as well as a bit of constraint to help promote creativity."

Each player has their own hand to play. For example, what if a player laid down a 5/6 or worse a double? You have a whole round were everyone was being tormented by or breaking their oaths. While a little drama and dilema is good, a truck load of it is too much.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 21, 2011, 08:41:59 AM
Hopefully cleared some things up in this version based on the above feedback

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4x0kqd18ns1dbd2 (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4x0kqd18ns1dbd2)

Hitting the hard limit of 3,000 words so I had to integrate/axe some of the designer notes.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 23, 2011, 02:07:12 PM
Got a playtest for tonight with a bunch of GURPS players.  If they can grok this, I'm golden.  Final release version planned for tomorrow.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Hans Chung-Otterson on July 24, 2011, 12:00:25 AM
Got a playtest for tonight with a bunch of GURPS players.  If they can grok this, I'm golden.  Final release version planned for tomorrow.
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TAZ

how'd it go?


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 24, 2011, 01:07:42 AM
Holy Cats!  We had a blast.  As expected with introducing traditional gamers to this style of game play, the first two scenes were a little rough but after that the guys took to it like a fish to water.*  The first session was a Wild West adventure and by the time they wrapped that up they were clamoring for a second one (zombie apocalypse.)  The second one was really funny because 4 out of 6 players had romance cards for the secret agenda but nobody got the girl.

Yeah, it's 4 AM and I'm hoarse from laughing and having a good time.  One hundred percent mission accomplished.
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TAZ

* Atarashi Games' Panty Explosion Perfect has a similar free form narrative structure and it took a different group 3-4 scenes before warming up.


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: Hans Chung-Otterson on July 24, 2011, 11:44:21 AM
How long does it play?


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 24, 2011, 08:33:41 PM
It took about two hours per game and that was with 25 (5x5) and 24 (6x4) tiles respectively (1 scene per tile plus brain storming/character gen at the begining and an extra scene for the epilogue.)  Due to the audience participation, acting out dialog, and  general table talk, it felt like everyone was engaged even when it wasn't their turn.

If you were to run a 'con game' of TTwR and had pre-gens for the setting and characters you could easily knock a half hour off of that.  Of course, there was also a lot of challenge and buy-in with creating the story and characters on the fly.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on July 28, 2011, 07:40:11 AM
Some of the reviews from my game are starting to show up.  Props to them for nailing down what I knew were weak points but I did not have the word count to expand on.  Looks like I'm 'compelled' to create a version 2.0 when all the feedback comes in.  :-)

One of the more challenging comments was a complaint about switching between cards and dominos.  To me, that would be about as baseless as switching between dice and cards in Monopoly.  But, it is a challenge worth considering.  Can secret agendas and random settings be created using only dominos?  Is the honor system acceptable since players would have to write down their results?  What kind of random chart can you make from dominos?  (min value is 1d7 and its max value is 1d28)  Things to ponder for the next version.
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on September 10, 2011, 12:22:50 PM
Version 2.0 is now available for download.  No significant rules changes, but better organization, more examples, and a game play check list.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?a72jcxc4d8xg399 (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?a72jcxc4d8xg399)

Thank you one and all for such a great contest and all the feedback!
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TAZ


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on September 28, 2011, 05:34:48 PM
The Trouble with Rose (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B06hdt8eB6Y7MmJiYWI1Y2ItNGMyNi00MDA2LTg4OTUtNzMyMzA4M2NkODlh&hl=en_US) folder on Google Docs.

Includes the v2.0 rules and all current play sets.

New -> Added a Ghost/Echo inspired play set.
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TAZ

If you're really really curious about how the game plays, I'm running TTwR in slot 01 for MonkeyCon Zero.  Will probably run one or two of the play sets if time permits.  Of course, any and all are welcome to suggest new play sets for me to craft (and you're quite welcome to write your own and pitch it to the players.)


Title: Re: [Game Chef 2011] The Trouble with Rose
Post by: zircher on October 14, 2011, 07:34:49 PM
If you like the actual play thing, the Sunday Skypers just dropped a one shot of The Trouble with Rose using the Six Guns and Dust play set.  It's a good walk through of the rules.  Unfortunately, the Rev's mic was a little twitchy, but the show must go on!

http://sundayskypers.podbean.com/ (http://sundayskypers.podbean.com/)

Oh, and monkey boy here forgot to post a link to the Con Planner (http://www.conplanner.com) site for MonkeyCon Zero (http://www.conplanner.com/ConventionHome.aspx?c=57) when happens next weekend via Skype (http://www.skype.com).
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TAZ