[Agon] - Fun & Death on the Island of Skyros
John Harper:
A battle in Agon can be a subtle and tricky thing, competition-wise, and has everything to do with brinksmanship or "playing chicken" with the other heroes, as well as good Oath management.
As you discovered, a hero cannot rush in, charge up his uber attack, and swat down a bad guy with one blow. This is by design. It's basically impossible to take out any character with one shot during a battle. The result is that the hero who jumps in and does damage first is helping the other heroes by softening up the baddie. Someone has to be the first one to strike the bad guy, and this move will help the hero group (by shortening the combat and giving the bad guy fewer opportunities to do damage and suck up the resources of the party). But it will likely hurt the hero, because his fellows will have an easier shot at the higher wound boxes, which are worth more Glory.
It's almost always a better strategy to hold back and let someone else strike the first (and probably second and third) blow, then cherry pick the higher wound boxes by using the "attack again" Divine Favor ability at the right moment. But if all the heroes sit back and wait, the bad guy gets in more hits and hurts the group.
So there's your dilemma. Agon is a game of dilemmas. Do you go in swinging and try to get it over with, probably missing out on the higher Glory? Or do you take the chance that someone else will do it for you, and wait for the juicy shot?
Then, throw Oaths in to the mix. The guy who goes first and softens up the bad guy is helping the other heroes. Every single time you help the other heroes, you should charge Oaths for your trouble. If they don't want to pony up, that's their problem, and you can sit back and wait right along with them. (Assuming you haven't positioned yourself as the bad guy's punching bag, of course.)
There are layers and layers, not all immediately apparent on the first go. Try being the "I'll hit him first" guy for several battles and build up a nice pile of Oaths to cash in later -- right when the other heroes least want you to.
hermes:
As the player in Darcy's game who was most vocal in his dislike for the wound mechanic, I suppose I should contribute a few words to the discussion.
I think that the problem I have with it is that the game mechanics seem at odds with the roleplaying elements. There seems to be quite a bit of emphasis placed upon the quest for glory--that is, as far as I can tell from what I have seen of the game thus far, the main goal for each player/character. Having read the posts of those in favour of the wound mechanic, it appears that the best way to achieve glory is to hang back and let others do all of the work for you. The roleplayer in me cries foul at the mere of thought of such an act. That's not glory...that's cowardice.
A warrior seeking glory would denounce all other warriors for being weak and girlish (ancient warriors weren't known for their political correctness) and charge into battle. The bravest, and therefore most feared and respected, warriors were those who stood at the front of the battle formation, hacking away limbs with seemingly reckless abandon. It seems to me that the warrior who hangs back, making largely ineffective ranged attacks while his companions are bathed in the blood and viscera of their enemies, is being clever and opportunistic as far as the game mechanics are concerned, but that warrior is far from glorious. They should earn the wrath of the gods, not reap the bounties and rewards.
Also, mechanically you spend divine favour in order to pull off spectacular attacks by "opening" dice. Presumably, the gods like this sort of thing because its bloody and leads to more deaths, which is, of course, glorious. So shouldn't opening your dice to score an attack with 2 or even 3 victories earn you more glory than an attack that only produces 1 victory? Is it more glorious to graze someone with a 1 victory spear thrust when they are already at death's door and would probably topple over in a strong breeze, or is it better to bring a thunderous 3 victory sword smashing through someone's armour and into their collar bone with a single blow? I'll take the latter.
It feels wrong to me. As a set of abstract mechanics, it's fine to say that poaching kills is the best tactic on the road to victory. As a roleplaying game, that involves some level of immersion into the setting, it just doesn't sit well with me.
That is my initial reaction after a single evening of play.
Out of curiosity, I don't recall this coming up at all during our game, but just how difficult is it to kill minions (i.e., generic, relatively weak opponents who tend to appear in large numbers)? Even though I suspect there will be more hits worth multiple victories (because the minions would likely be using fairly small dice on their defense), it seems that they would still take a long time to kill or defeat. I picture a heroic warrior, in the tradition that Agon seems to be built around, cutting a swath of carnage through minions, but the wound system really seems to discourage even the possibility of a one shot kill. Is there a separate mechanic to cover that?
Glenn
Darcy Burgess:
I have some questions of my own regarding John's comments, but I want to let Glenn's feedback rule the thread for a bit. I don't have anything to add right now, Glenn, but I'm watching intently.
John Harper:
First, minions. A minion is defeated with a single hit. They're worth 1 Glory each.
Glenn, we are on the same page regarding charging into battle and being brave and glorious and such. So why does the system work the way it does? Some of that answer has to do with emergent properties of the game, and it's hard to unpack unless you've seen it. But maybe I can sort of point at the thing I mean, and you can fill in the rest with play and reflection.
Here's something: When minions are involved, the hero who dives in first and attacks the most wins big. If you have the Divine Favor to spend, you can step up to a group of minions and cut them all down before anyone else blinks (two swords are great for this). This might be worth as much as 6 Glory in one chunk, and you don't have to share any of it with the other heroes.
Now the big nasty NPC guy? He's worth 6 Glory to the hero who hits that last wound box. BUT, he's also worth 5 Glory to the hero who hit the no. five box, 4 Glory to the next one down, and so on. When an NPC is defeated, there might be a Glory differential of 2-3 points among the heroes involved. And then everyone also shares equally in the bonus Glory based on the Strife cost of the NPC. So when an NPC goes down, the group as a whole gets a nice big Glory boost (towards advances and increased effectiveness).
So: Fighting minions with aggression and verve can mean a big Glory boost for the hero who is brave and quick. Fighting NPCs is a more bitter battle of attrition that doesn't reward one hero very much more than another*. Groups of minions are ridiculously dangerous with their big fat attack bonuses, and are basically the only entity in the game that can score a 6-victory roll and drop someone with one attack. The hero that charges up to a group of minions risks a lot with his aggression, and stands to gain a big individual reward. The heroes who fight an NPC must be more wiley, more crafty, more subtle and skillful to edge out an advantage over their fellows, but when an NPC goes down, the collective reaps a nice big reward.
One way is Achilles, the other is Odysseus.
Does that help?
- J
* (Unless you are really, really good at Agon, and can gobble up the 4, 5, and 6 boxes yourself for a nice 3-pt. bump over the next highest guy who got the 3 box.)
I have more to say about contests vs. battles, but that can wait.
Darcy Burgess:
Data point: we saw no Minions during our trip to Skyros.
Data point: we saw no Minions during out trip to Skyros because I didn't get what John just said when I planned my NPCs.
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