Why Relationships With People?
David Artman:
You really think so, Ben? I mean, someone trying to convince my Dog that no one cares about him isn't threatening the Relationships themselves: they aren't going to suddenly evaporate if my Dog gives, right? I can ride back into Tea Creek and, lo, there's my 4d8 Relationship with random stranger who saved my life (AP pending). No amount of my thinking it's not "real" anymore is going to stop me (the player) from being able to plunk down 4d8 when next I am in conflict with/about him.
Again, it's about negotiation always--perhaps your group has worked its way toward a looser stakes-setting paradigm?--but I just can't see "persuade my Dog that he's isolated" = "Rel is at stake or conflict is with the Rel." But, hey, I'm a newb....
-----
As a brief AP which relates to this thread: I built a Strong Community Dog for last night's game (because it fit the concept, not to try to use a lot of Rel dice experimentally... I don't think). My Rels worked out thusly, in three hours of play:
(Starting) 2d6 with Pride: In my home town, we we so Righteous that we'd spot and stomp out any inklings of Pride before it could progress to worse sins. 1d6 with the Ancient Order itself, because my town groomed me to be a Dog from childhood and made damned sure the Ancient Order heard ALL about my faith and accomplishments in my formative years (also because I refused to practice any martial arts or shooting beyond hunting rifles: "I will not use weapons on a human: 2d8"). I picked these two to setup a nice tension in my background: I knoweth Pride (except my own) and I all-but-forced my way into the Order (yep, pridefully). I expect those Pride dice to work out JUST fine....
(GM suggested; I didn't have to put in dice; I figured "Eh, why not?") 1d6 with an Aunt who's prolly the Town's False Priestess--handy, I suppose. Pinged once (along with my 2d8 Coat) when my Dog pointed at one of the many quilt patches on his coat and asked her, "You're still the aunt who made this patch for me, a Watchdog for the King of Life, yes?" as preamble to a Block against her saying something like, "You're still a young'un, you've never raised a family, you don't know nuthin'."
1d10 with a woman who shot us, taken totally (and only) to snag a shot at a high die result. Cool scene, sure, but the die did nothing much to help, and that Relationship is most assuredly on a timer, now (i.e. she's a dead woman, she just still walking around, is all).
4d8 with a stranger who showed up as me and my fellow Dog were at 16 and 17 Fallout (~6d10 each)--yeah, the bitch really gave it her best shot (literally). Oh, sure, my Dog knows the dude's name (I can't recall, 12 hours later); but I hadn't had a single scene with him yet--it was totally and only to gain the dice I needed to have a chance at not Dying.
So, all-in-all, I was generally making Rels about which I (the player) didn't give a hoot, purely out of reactionary mechanical needs. I can only presume I still don't fully grok how they can be of use later, in particular, 1d10 with a woman who will be doing some no-handed swinging from a tree before we leave town and 4d8 with a dude I probably won't see again without serious GM Dice Ex Mechina. The munchkin in me feel rather screwed, frankly.
Vincent, maybe you could unpack the "used like hero points" thing, as I've never read nor played Hero Quest? Or, heck, just toss out some ways these whopping "dead" Relationships could ever be of use after our next session (I am assuming we'll wrap the town in another two or three hours)?
As Tyler Durden said in Fight Club: " Ahh!! Ok, ok, I got, I got it.... Shit I lost it."
zornwil:
I think the other thing to realize is it really does matter on what feels right in your play group, I believe, in general, as to how you apply these Relationships. The rules and various discussions here seem to state there should be some tightness to the definitions of whether a sin's at stake and so on, but I've also seen comments by Vincent and others that maybe it is more flexible and it doesn't break anything, so I tend to think that as long as the group is okay with how you apply Relationships and as long as Relationships aren't becoming like Traits in broader/flexible application you'll be okay. In other words, there's probably no right answer as to whether your group favors institutions, sins, and places over individuals.
But I would caution that in another discussion here someone raised an example of selecting "farmers" as the basis for a Relationship and that was strongly rejected as it does not meet the qualification for an institution and it's not a person. So I would expect an "orthodox" Dogs answer would reject a Relationship to "Mountain People," as I wouldn't say they're an "organization" or institution even though it's said as such above.
However, I don't think I agree with that the more I've seen Dogs in play, I think in both the orthodox game and its offshoots the question of relationships to categories of people will also drive conflicts and stories in as useful/meaningful a way and doesn't "break" the system. Personally, I think Relationships are a bit hobbled in the game sometimes and don't see an issue with broader interpretations of bringing them in than is at least implied in the book. That said, I fully admit that I tend to run things more loosely. But it doesn't seem to break that way; in fact when playing in more strict ways with Relationships we found Relationship-based PCs were less useful to players except for players assigning their significant Relationship dice to other PCs and the Dogs as an institution. I think so long as at least Relationships really do require that the "noun" that's the subject is truly engaged in the conflict meaningfully, then the noun that's the subject of the Relationship can be fairly broad/more open than implied in the book.
But like I said earlier, my paragraph directly preceding is not "orthodox" so proceed at your own risk in following my comments! Just my 2 cents from playing Dogs straight and non-straight.
zornwil:
Quote from: David Artman on January 09, 2008, 08:57:22 AM
You really think so, Ben? I mean, someone trying to convince my Dog that no one cares about him isn't threatening the Relationships themselves: they aren't going to suddenly evaporate if my Dog gives, right? I can ride back into Tea Creek and, lo, there's my 4d8 Relationship with random stranger who saved my life (AP pending). No amount of my thinking it's not "real" anymore is going to stop me (the player) from being able to plunk down 4d8 when next I am in conflict with/about him.
Again, it's about negotiation always--perhaps your group has worked its way toward a looser stakes-setting paradigm?--but I just can't see "persuade my Dog that he's isolated" = "Rel is at stake or conflict is with the Rel." But, hey, I'm a newb....
-----
As a brief AP which relates to this thread: I built a Strong Community Dog for last night's game (because it fit the concept, not to try to use a lot of Rel dice experimentally... I don't think). My Rels worked out thusly, in three hours of play:
(Starting) 2d6 with Pride: In my home town, we we so Righteous that we'd spot and stomp out any inklings of Pride before it could progress to worse sins. 1d6 with the Ancient Order itself, because my town groomed me to be a Dog from childhood and made damned sure the Ancient Order heard ALL about my faith and accomplishments in my formative years (also because I refused to practice any martial arts or shooting beyond hunting rifles: "I will not use weapons on a human: 2d8"). I picked these two to setup a nice tension in my background: I knoweth Pride (except my own) and I all-but-forced my way into the Order (yep, pridefully). I expect those Pride dice to work out JUST fine....
(GM suggested; I didn't have to put in dice; I figured "Eh, why not?") 1d6 with an Aunt who's prolly the Town's False Priestess--handy, I suppose. Pinged once (along with my 2d8 Coat) when my Dog pointed at one of the many quilt patches on his coat and asked her, "You're still the aunt who made this patch for me, a Watchdog for the King of Life, yes?" as preamble to a Block against her saying something like, "You're still a young'un, you've never raised a family, you don't know nuthin'."
1d10 with a woman who shot us, taken totally (and only) to snag a shot at a high die result. Cool scene, sure, but the die did nothing much to help, and that Relationship is most assuredly on a timer, now (i.e. she's a dead woman, she just still walking around, is all).
4d8 with a stranger who showed up as me and my fellow Dog were at 16 and 17 Fallout (~6d10 each)--yeah, the bitch really gave it her best shot (literally). Oh, sure, my Dog knows the dude's name (I can't recall, 12 hours later); but I hadn't had a single scene with him yet--it was totally and only to gain the dice I needed to have a chance at not Dying.
So, all-in-all, I was generally making Rels about which I (the player) didn't give a hoot, purely out of reactionary mechanical needs. I can only presume I still don't fully grok how they can be of use later, in particular, 1d10 with a woman who will be doing some no-handed swinging from a tree before we leave town and 4d8 with a dude I probably won't see again without serious GM Dice Ex Mechina. The munchkin in me feel rather screwed, frankly.
Vincent, maybe you could unpack the "used like hero points" thing, as I've never read nor played Hero Quest? Or, heck, just toss out some ways these whopping "dead" Relationships could ever be of use after our next session (I am assuming we'll wrap the town in another two or three hours)?
As Tyler Durden said in Fight Club: " Ahh!! Ok, ok, I got, I got it.... Shit I lost it."
One thing to bear in mind is how quickly you can build Relationship dice back with Experience, Reflection (especially - note the "add any 2 dice options"/such (not looking directly at the book), and Fallout. And your group should be allways building Fallout and Experience, at least with intra-party minor squabbles and so on - that is to say, if you're minmaxing correctly. ;) Any talking conflict among a group can and usually will (if you want it to...) net you an Experience (and of course on a more story side of things should also continue to develop the relationships among the PCs). You mention being a relative newbie; one thing I see in newbie groups is everyone shying away from intra-party conflicts. Oh, and I also see people not Giving, either, to reinitiate Conflicts with more advantage with held die and so on, which also factors in here.
lumpley:
David: actually the opposite. In Hero Quest you'd spend your hero points for the additional dice, right now, you'd roll them, and they'd be gone forever. That's what you did, right? You wanted some more dice now, you weighed it against maybe wanting those same dice sometime in the future, you made your choice, you rolled your dice, they turned out how they turned out. They did their job (and if they rolled low, shit, that's why they're dice, not "10"s).
If you ever get to use those dice again, which is doubtful but who knows, consider it a totally undeserved bonus. Hero Quest would not have been as generous with you.
-Vincent
David Artman:
Ah, got it, Vincent; thanks. As Ben and zornwil basically said, Relationships aren't anywhere on par with Traits in terms of efficacy, and Rel Dice should be "refreshing" fairly often (Exp and Fallout). And, hey, even a single ping of that 4d8 kept the Dog above ground, and what's Life worth, eh?
Having at least *some* chance at Seeing a shotgun-wielding Sorceress: 1d10
Saving your own bacon when that 1d10 rolls a 2 and you've eaten 6d10 of buckshot Fallout: 4d8.
Not having to make another Dog in mid-session: priceless.
I'll no longer worry about the worth of Rel Dice, and I will spend the few I have left with gusto. When they're all gone... well, it's pretty easy to Take the Blow in talking, with high odds of Exp (25% chance, per Fallout die--you could approach 100% probability with a single Take the Blow using your crappiest rolls).
Thanks, everyone, for helping me relax a bit more, WRT the relative importance as practical use of Relationships.
David
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