Mother-May-I and 20 questions: Games GMs play
Joel P. Shempert:
Callan,
Quote from: Callan S. on January 09, 2008, 08:51:30 PM
During this, did any rolls actually happen? Or did all the little questions sort of circumvent rolls that might have otherwise emerged?
Well, there wasn't really anything roll-worthy in that part of the session, it was all a by-the nose GM-directed plot scene: PCs sent to get a thing from a guy, meet the guy, he leads us to the thing, we get the thing, we're walking back, we find some mages chanting in a grove, it turns into a combat encounter. The meticulous I'm-hear-not-there, do I overhear that remark? type stuff seemed purely aimed at maintaining versimiltude at a highly atomic level--i.e. "I don't want to break down the causality of the world by being ten feet to the left of where I 'should' be!"
There was a series of rolls leading up to the combat encounter--mainly spellcraft and knowledge rolls to determine if the chanting mages (who wouldn't acknowledge us mid-chant) were a threat or hostile or whatever. (Results were all inconclusive; they were then attacked by a mysterious NPC while most of us stood around not having any clear side to back in the fight. But that's a whole
'nother issue.)
Dave,
Quote from: David Artman on January 10, 2008, 08:14:37 AM
I don't really know what to tell you about how to deal with that.
Yeah, me neither. Except maybe:
Quote from: David Artman on January 10, 2008, 08:14:37 AM
Otherwise, you need to stay on the grid system OR have clear demarcations of when you're off-grid and on-grid.
That sounds like a good baseline for a start. It probably requires some group discussion and explicit buy-in for that procedure. It would cut both ways: if you're on grid, the grid is law, and if you're flanking and AoE's and suh don't work out, too damn bad. And if you're off-grid, then you get appropriate leeway, including the leeway to tweak the grid positioning when shit does hit the fan (to bypass that leeway you have to go on-grid before the shit hits).
Quote from: David Artman on January 10, 2008, 08:14:37 AM
So the mansion should have been on-grid from the first guest's arrival. Period. We've done it all the time: draw out an area where all the encounters ended up being conversational or social challenges. And ya know what? We *still* had to know ranges and lines of sight and such
See, that seems kinda over-the-top to me. It's certainly a way to go, but I would find it much more fun to handle these things on a more abstract level, incorporating (say) the success/failure of lipreading into a general sense motive check. 'Cause when the shit does hit, you can always fall back on this:
Quote from: David Artman on January 10, 2008, 08:14:37 AM
And ya know what? So what? Yep, the PCs will form a neigh-perfect array based on their combat niches. So What? These folks (if not, like, 2nd level) are presumably serious combat machines--adventurers and battlemasters--and so why wouldn't they almost always move (in "casual mode") in proper support array? Every watched a squad of Special Forces walk into a bar together? You ain't getting the drop on them, there will be no unnoticed corners or blindspots, they get back-to-wall almost by instinct (in fact, probably ACTUALLY by instinct). So who cares if the PCs "always" enjoy ideal positioning? Throw some blink dogs at 'em and that will go to shit soon enough. :D
I too have no problem with going this route, provided we understand going in that that's the way we roll. It's a perfect comprimise between the two modes, allowing me to be freewheeling with my Bluffing scenes and deadly precise with my Sneak Attack. :)
peace,
-Joel
Callan S.:
Hi again, Joel,
Ah, I'll tell you what I thought might be happening - I'll extend your sentence a bit
Quote
"I don't want to break down the causality of the world by being ten feet to the left of where I 'should' be, because otherwise I'll be penalised by that missunderstanding (either by being unable to do things or having to make rolls I otherwise wouldn't have had to make)"
Looking into what's the problem before getting onto a solution (Ron might be able to swing by with a killer post, but this is how I'm approaching it). Was it anything at all like that, or were they actually enjoying working out every detail of who's where when?
Joel P. Shempert:
Hi, Callan!
Yeah, I understood what you were getting at, and I gots no problem with that approach, with the probing questions and so forth. That said, I must stress that I really think it's like I said (without your bolded addition)--a pure permission thing grounded in adhering to the conceit of a "real" version of the gameworld that is observed and reported by the GM. It's like when one player says "I walk out of the cave," a little clockwork model of that character starts trundling along, thus when (and ONLY when!) that model reaches the point of the cave mouth, the second character who is standing there is "cleared" to speak to the character. And since only the GM can "see" the clockwork, "permission to speak" is vetted through him. And if that sounds like a freaking meticulous and slow way to play a roleplaying game, well. . .yeah, it is. :P
I really don't see much "gotta be in just the right square to flank/cast my buff spells/etc" going on in these exchanges. I understand how that easily could be the case, but it's not with this group.
Peace,
-Joel
Callan S.:
Oh, I don't think I was probing for "gotta be in just the right square to flank/cast my buff spells/etc". That sounds too positive, like the player has a plan and that plan is to be in a certain square. I'm thinking more a player that has no plan and in the past various nasty zaps have launched themselves at him (do you know what I mean - it's like missing one detail and taking alot of damage, or losing gear, and such. It's a bit hard to summerise). I'm thinking players in constant damage control - not toward any purpose, but simply avoiding 'pain'/game penalties. It doesn't get play anywhere, but it's like flinching away from a hot counter top that burnt your fingers in the past - they can't help but keep flinching/hammering out every fucking detail.
Your describing a considerable amount of effort - usually effort is driven by pain or joy. I'm guessing pain (which drives avoidance), cause you havn't described any happy faces. Don't worry, I'm not thinking gamism! Still sounds way off?
contracycle:
My own solution top the problem of switching from Low Detail to High Crunch has been to stay in Low Detail. Combat scenes, even with all the crunch, are conducted in much the same way as the usual question-and-confirmation structure of play.
It probably helps that I am not prone to the kind of "zaps" that Callan mentioned, or at least, not for a long time. As a rule if a player wants to be in a given "square" I will simply allow it. At other times I am much more assertive and will tell the player whether they are or are not in that square before asking them for an action; I stick a finger in their face and yell "X happens! Do Something!" I am also willing to interrupt or reject proposed player actions, but if I do this I will try to provide some sort of compensation, suggest some other thing which the change of circumstances now permits.
The 'little clockwork model' in my head is indeed the only 'true' model, but as long as I am not persecuting the players, and have their trust, then IME it's functional. Because I am not locked into the tactical and map-based approach, I can also introduce normal narration should that be required; it is probable, although of course not certain, that given the situation with the ring balconies I would have described not only the appearance on the balcony but also how the characters could see them (that is, through the ring); just as in normal narration, I am aware of dominating the only channel of communication and that if I don't describe it it isn't there.
And if all else fails, I can always own up and apologise for confusing the players, which at least mitigates the sense of having being unfairly or unreasonably treated.
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