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Author Topic: [dogs] A question about Taking The Blow and fallout dice size  (Read 4394 times)
JamesDJIII
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« on: January 10, 2008, 09:07:43 AM »

I'll post the AP for the Dogs game I ran with David Artman and another buddy later. Right now, I have questions!

Situation is that David's dog makes a Raise against an NPC:

David: I step forward and point my rifle at her face, but I don't shoot. <puts up 2 dice as his raise, it's an 11, let's say>
Me: I Take the Blow... <I put up 5 dice, totalling, say 15> ...your rifle discharges."

Questions:

1. Is this ok? Can my Take The Blow narration do this?
2. If it is ok, what size Fallout dice does the NPC accrue? The Raise is not just talking, and it's not gun fire... etc. The Take The Blow IS a bullet.

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Filip Luszczyk
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 09:25:16 AM »

I think with this particular Raise Taking the Blow should rather mean that he indeed puts the rifle at her face without shooting. Your See sounds more like a nasty Reversal to me.

However, it's a bit tricky. What was David's intent behind the Raise? Was the thing his opposition couldn't ignore specifically his character pointing the rifle without shooting, or rather specifically not shooting her? I tend to think in "mini-stakes" terms when it comes to what Taking the Blow means for a given Raise.

As for Fallout, I'd go with d6. It's all non-violent action.
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lumpley
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 09:27:06 AM »

1. No. "I don't shoot" is part of the blow you have to take. You could do it on a reverse for sure, though.
2. If you could do it, it'd be d10s fallout, because of the bullet. As it is, it's d4s, because there's no physical contact between you, just the threat.

-Vincent
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JamesDJIII
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 09:32:30 AM »

Ah! Ok, understood.
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Filip Luszczyk
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 09:37:40 AM »

Vincent,

The Fallout bit is interesting. What about Raises like "I run and block his way out of the room" or similar? Normally, I'd treat them as non-violent physical and go with d6 Fallout, due to it being a clearly physical action that doesn't include direct contact. Physical contact was a kind of grey area to me, and I usually interpret "just touching" as d6 and go with d8s when things are clearly violent.
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lumpley
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 09:45:46 AM »

James: here's a fun trick, though:
You take the blow: "she freezes and her eyes get really big."
You raise: "...and your gun goes off, splattering her brains all over the wall."

Then it's on David to block or dodge that.

You can kill NPCs with a raise like that, whenever you want to, you don't have to build up d10 fallout on them.

Filip: either way's fine. Generally, go with the interpretation of the person making the raise. If it's not clear, I just ask: "so do you mean for me to take d4 fallout or d6?"

-Vincent
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JamesDJIII
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 09:49:38 AM »

Vincent, I would have done that, but I was down to just enough dice to Take The Blow or give. It was 2 dogs against 1 NPC - I didn't have enough dice to See both of the Dog's Raises and then for me to Raise again.

But this is going into my list of things to try next!
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David Artman
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 09:58:43 AM »

Vincent, that's what I though too: it would be a great Reversal--realize that my character has the Traits "Violence is never the solution" and "I won't use a weapon on a human"!--but invalid as a Take.

As for the Fallout dice, I thought if Guns come out, it's d10, no matter what. An "Injured" result would fall into that cool, new realm from another post: Psychological Injury. Or am I taking the "drawing a gun is escalation to gunfighting" thing too far by extending it to apply to fallout as well? (I certainly rolled my applicable stat die, when I pulled the gun!)

Also, FWIW, the woman at whom I aimed had already fired both barrels of a shotgun and was pig-sticking my fellow Dog--but, I guess, *her* level of escalation and actions do not impact the Fallout from Taking the Blow from *my* actions, right?

Filip echoes some of my confusions around Physical v Fighting, in particular grappling for an object. Part of me thinks, "Well, no one's trying to hurt anyone, just be the last guy holding the object, like a scrum for a football;" but another part of me thinks "There's never a guarantee someone won't get hurt in such a scuffle, so it should be Fighting even though both participants are trying to avoid injuring the other." The notion of physically denying someone from moving into an area (or at all, by holding them) is in the same boat: I want to stop a suicide jumper from going over the edge, so I am holding on while he is "fighting" my efforts (neither of us trying to hurt). It just strikes me as odd that Injury could result from two people taking no aggressive actions--is "accident" that important mechanically?

I, for one, am inclined to use Intent as the mark, and Intent of violence is Fighting, Intent of control/resistance is Physical. Then again, just stepping up into someone's face is Physical, too (right?). But most notions of law consider intimidation (projecting Intent to Harm without any physical contact) to be assault--a synonym for harm and, thus, suggestive of fighting.

Maybe I'm over-thinking it.... Or maybe there's a clear demarcation in the book that I can't recall: a signal that, yep, this is Physical now and another signal that, yep, this is Fighting now (much like the "gun drawn == Gunfighting, even if not firing" signal)?

[New Posts - So the signal is explicit in negotiation, for those two stages? If I want my opponent to take d8s, then I have gone to Fighting, no matter what "intent" or the means by which we are engaging? If I want d6s, then I could conceivable be slapping the shit out of him, but not so-as to break a jaw, more to "snap him out of it" or whatever?]

Sorry if I'm dense or missing the obvious;
David
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Filip Luszczyk
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 10:02:48 AM »

Quote
Filip: either way's fine. Generally, go with the interpretation of the person making the raise. If it's not clear, I just ask: "so do you mean for me to take d4 fallout or d6?"

Well, yes, that's how we normally do it in cases of overlapping arenas and such.

Thanks for the clarification.
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lumpley
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 10:22:39 AM »

David:

1) Escalation never, ever, ever matters to fallout, only the details of the raise. It's the bullet that makes the fallout d10s, not the fact that you've rolled acuity & will. (If you prefer, escalation matters only indirectly. It matters because the raises will include bullets hitting people pretty much only after you've escalated to gunfighting.)

2) You shouldn't roll acuity & will until you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. If you point your gun at someone and yell at them, you get the dice for your gun, but you haven't escalated to gunfighting.

3) Yes. All the time I'm asking people, "are you trying to hurt him or just trying to control where he goes?" Whether they've escalated to fighting or just physical depends on their answer.

That's when it could be either. Lots of cases, it's perfectly clear which. ("I hug him" vs "I punch his lights out.")

-Vincent
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David Artman
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 10:54:13 AM »

RE #2... Oops! I thought I was all-but-quoting the book, with that "guns out == gunfighting escalation."

I think it's time for my fourth re-read of the rules, before our next session. I shut up until after I've done that.

Thanks, as always!
David
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JamesDJIII
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 02:47:51 PM »


2) You shouldn't roll acuity & will until you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. If you point your gun at someone and yell at them, you get the dice for your gun, but you haven't escalated to gunfighting.


I'm pretty sure I've been doing this part wrong, too. I always went right to rolling the acity & will, and never even using the dice for the gun.

Oh and I can't tell you how much fun it was to pig-stick a PC.
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dindenver
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2008, 12:59:16 PM »

Hi!
  I think there is a semi-technical question in this situation that has not been clearly addressed (at least in my mind):
  When you "take the blow," is the character taking the blow (as in the character experiences disadvantage of some sort) or is your control over the flow of narration taking a blow (as in you must concede some fact that the other player is asserting about the flow of the current conflict)?
  To state it more clearly (how could I not?):
"Character takes a blow" - The gun goes off. In this case, its clear that the disadvantage to the character matches the 5 dice needed to take the blow...
"Narrative control takes the blow" - The character is starting to realize that violence is not the answer. Again, taking a big blow with 5 dice. The GM's control of the narrative has clearly shifted towards the player's intent (Violence is never the solution), no?

  Well, that was my question, what do you think?
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lumpley
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2008, 01:17:54 PM »

I think either or both, depending on the particular circumstances.

I think it's worthwhile to consider which, case by case.

Good spot!

-Vincent
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Darren Hill
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2008, 03:53:39 AM »

Hi, James, just in case it's unclear:

David: I step forward and point my rifle at her face, but I don't shoot. <puts up 2 dice as his raise, it's an 11, let's say>
Me: I Take the Blow... <I put up 5 dice, totalling, say 15> ...your rifle discharges."

When you take the blow, you only need equal or exceed the raise. If you can make 15 with 5 dice, I'm sure you can get a lot closer to 11 by dropping one or more of those dice. (Unless you have a very good pool.)
It may be that you just picked those numbers out of the air and know this already, bu tI thought it worth mentioning in case you didn't.
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