Creating a Community
Frank Tarcikowski:
Okay, here's a suggestion. It's not meant as a criticism, just as an example of how I handle situations like the ones you described, where player characters might get killed. Heck, maybe you even did something of the likes.
In your first example, I would have told the player: "You know that NPC X is out there, don't you?" Just to make sure he does. "He might attack you, and he's more capable than you are." And if that player still insists on going there, so be it. Let the PC die.
Same in the second example. "You know, you might get killed", is a line that I sometimes used. It's a warning sign. What it achieves is that the players don't constantly look for potentially lethal traps because they know there will be a clear warning. Players in my games have decided to ignore the warning several times. That was a real statement, about what mattered to them. It was fun. Sometimes the PCs survived, sometimes they didn't. I was in a comfortable position: I had warned them. I had not forced them into taking that risk.
As for the gamist/narrativist thing, I very strongly recommend to spare these two words (and the third one that goes along) when talking about this with your players. I'm not going to play the GNS cop because that's not my job, but I have a feeling it would also benefit this discussion if we could just leave the jargon out of it.
- Frank
Reithan:
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 23, 2008, 05:56:28 PM
Heck, maybe you even did something of the likes.
Yup, I always do. Though, I don't give more than 1 warning, and it isn't always explicit.
For example, when the character left and got ambushed, I mentioned that "you don't know where <enemy> is right now, are you sure you wanna go up there?" and he proceeded anyway.
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 23, 2008, 05:56:28 PM
As for the gamist/narrativist thing, I very strongly recommend to spare these two words (and the third one that goes along) when talking about this with your players. I'm not going to play the GNS cop because that's not my job, but I have a feeling it would also benefit this discussion if we could just leave the jargon out of it.
I don't usually bring it up in specifically those terms. I bring it up more in terms of "combat & strategy" versus "drama, plot & intrigue".
They're not so much into the theory-whoring as I am, and though they're smart enough to grasp it, they just don't care to.
So, I have the GNS wheels turning in my head as well as they can, but the conversation is generally along the lines of what sort of scenes they'd like to see, what sort of activities they want the characters to do, etc.
So far theie "ideal itenerary" for their characters has involved politics, mystery, drama, horror and exploring points of the theme of the game.
Their actual play though, has mostly involved plotting, strategizing and killing things and taking their stuff.
Normally I'd just go "whatever" and go with the flow as I have nothing against gamist play - but this doesn't seem to be entirely satisfying for them, as they know it's not what they're trying to do - it's just what they keep doing...
Not sure if that makes sense.
Frank Tarcikowski:
Hi Reithan,
Sure, this makes sense!
Quote
I bring it up more in terms of "combat & strategy" versus "drama, plot & intrigue"
Good to hear. So, what they say and what they do is not the same thing. I can only guess as to why, and my guess remains: Die-hard gamer habits. They just don’t know what else they should do, in order to engage with your background in the way they say they want to engage.
There is a lot of good advice to you as the GM in this thread, and I can point you to several other threads that might help you further improve your GMing techniques for this mode of play, but really I think that’s not the problem. The problem is, as long as your players block, you are not getting anywhere.
Maybe I am overstressing the point, but I have a feeling, so I’ll press it a bit further. While you play, do you comment a lot “out of character” on what’s happening? Do you explicitly and communicate about your ideas and goals as players (and authors) of a given scene while you are playing that scene? Do you, the GM, explain stuff to the players that their characters don’t know, in order to help them understand the situation and be able to address it like authors and push it in a direction they find interesting?
Or is it more like: Whatever you say your character says; you only know what your character knows?
- Frank
TonyLB:
Quote from: Reithan on January 22, 2008, 10:29:06 AM
I think what you're trying to say is the create a sort of "community liason" NPC. There has been this NPC at times, in the player's herald NPC - however he was killed and has yet to be successfully replaced (one of the players killed his successor [another player] in a duel). So - this position may be filled again in the future, but for very in-character reasons the position's beginning to be looked on as somewhat 'cursed.'
Wellll ... yes, and no. I do think that a character who is conscious of how he's tied in to the whole community is important. But I also think that it's important that there be NPCs who are not aware of the fact that they (like everyone else) are tied in to the whole community.
Look at it this way: As GM, you have all of the connections and interactions in mind, yes? It takes a lot of mental energy, in fact, to keep them all in mind. "If Edgar sets a dismantled car up on blocks in his yard, Morgan his Homes-and-Gardens-obsessed neighbor across the street is going to be incensed, which means that as union boss he's going to be more intransigent in the strike talks, which means ...." This is a chain of cause and effect which should crop up pretty well instantly when you think about the community.
The trick I'm suggesting is to make sure that, even though you the GM have that in mind, Edgar the character does not realize any of that. Actual people have different levels of understanding of their impact on the community, and its impact upon them.
And the people who don't get it are, fundamentally, one of the main driving factors for good community-related PC missions. Why is Maggie on the edge of bankruptcy? Because she can't work in the factory, because the union talks are so screwed up, because of Edgar and his stupid '67 Thunderbird! The PCs are the ones (one presumes) who are connected throughout the community, and have the leverage to go and convince Edgar of a better plan (or perhaps just help him fix the car!) in order to untangle the whole chain of human consequence.
You've got to have people who are filamented through the community, and can work with it as a whole, and you've got to have people who barely even understand that they're part of a community at all. Together, they create the funny, push-and-pull reality of a vibrant human community.
Does that make any sense? I'm having the hardest time getting this intuition out into the open light of words.
Reithan:
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 01:27:03 AM
Good to hear. So, what they say and what they do is not the same thing. I can only guess as to why, and my guess remains: Die-hard gamer habits. They just don’t know what else they should do, in order to engage with your background in the way they say they want to engage.
There is a lot of good advice to you as the GM in this thread, and I can point you to several other threads that might help you further improve your GMing techniques for this mode of play, but really I think that’s not the problem. The problem is, as long as your players block, you are not getting anywhere.
I definitely agree here. As such, I wouldn't even be so worried about it if it was just them blocking because the game is currently already how they like it, but they currently seem to WANT the game to be where we were talking about - but seem incapable of letting the game do that.
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 01:27:03 AM
Maybe I am overstressing the point, but I have a feeling, so I’ll press it a bit further. While you play, do you comment a lot “out of character” on what’s happening? Do you explicitly and communicate about your ideas and goals as players (and authors) of a given scene while you are playing that scene? Do you, the GM, explain stuff to the players that their characters don’t know, in order to help them understand the situation and be able to address it like authors and push it in a direction they find interesting?
Or is it more like: Whatever you say your character says; you only know what your character knows?
I think what you might be getting at here is the difference between Nar and Sim. I think you may be right. We've talked a lot about wanting to foster certain themes, wanting to develop certain character aspects and different types of drama we'd like to see in game, but overall in game, I think my tending has been more towards, as you're saying, just trying to get everyone immersed in the setting.
Honestly, 99% of my gaming experience as a player has been with strictly Gamist venues, so I think it's just a matter of me not being fully polished when it comes to other types of gameplay there, though, I don't fully think this invalidates the problem of the players blocking any non-Gamist play inadvertantly. I would say, during a game, we do tend to think/say things more towards an in-character mindset, outside of any random off-topic discussion.
I'm not sure if this swings us hard into Sim territory, because it seems to me that to explore things like Theme and Character Development, you'd need a Setting and Character with which to explore them...maybe that's just my inexperience with good Nar gaming talking, though.
Quote from: TonyLB on January 24, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
Wellll ... yes, and no. I do think that a character who is conscious of how he's tied in to the whole community is important. But I also think that it's important that there be NPCs who are not aware of the fact that they (like everyone else) are tied in to the whole community.
You may be onto something here, though, I must have missed it in your initial discussion.
Quote from: TonyLB on January 24, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
The trick I'm suggesting is to make sure that, even though you the GM have that in mind, Edgar the character does not realize any of that. Actual people have different levels of understanding of their impact on the community, and its impact upon them.
And the people who don't get it are, fundamentally, one of the main driving factors for good community-related PC missions. Why is Maggie on the edge of bankruptcy? Because she can't work in the factory, because the union talks are so screwed up, because of Edgar and his stupid '67 Thunderbird! The PCs are the ones (one presumes) who are connected throughout the community, and have the leverage to go and convince Edgar of a better plan (or perhaps just help him fix the car!) in order to untangle the whole chain of human consequence.
I suppose then, a better way to get into this sort of web is to build it from the other side. Instead of building a web of connections and trying to get it to shine through in the plot, build a plot hook, and then connect it back up into the community.
Using you example, rather than starting from Edgar's end and saying, "Well, Edgar lives near Morgan, what can we do with that? Ok - Edgar pissed off Moragn, what happens? Ok, Maggie lost her job and she goes looking to the PCs for help.
Instead, go, "Maggie's been laid off at he factory and is looking for help - why? Well, maybe there was a strike, who's in charge of that? Morgan. Ok - why would he do that? He's pissed off. Why? Well, maybe his neighbor pissed him off, who's that? Edgar. How's Edgar piss him off? Wrecked up his neighborhood with an eyesore in his front lawn."
That jive better with your idea?
Quote from: TonyLB on January 24, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
Does that make any sense? I'm having the hardest time getting this intuition out into the open light of words.
Yeah, it's making sense, I'm just not sure it's the same sense you're wanting it to make, so if I don't seem to have grasped it still, please explain further, or at least let me know I got it right, if that's the case. :)
Thanks again, guys!
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