Creating a Community
Frank Tarcikowski:
Okay, I don’t mean to be rude, but we need to get GNS off the table for now. What we are talking about here, in Big Model terms, are Techniques and Ephemera, and Exploration when it comes to actual content. We are talking about the blow-by-blow “what happens at the table”. GNS is the large scale interpretation over a long instance of play, so it’s not relevant at this moment.
Your Techniques and Ephemera (i.e. what you do, moment-to-moment, while you play) do not enable your stated goals for Exploration results, “plot, drama, intrigue” and “creating a feel of community”. That’s the disconnect I see, at the moment. As long as you don’t have that disconnect sorted out, I daresay you are nowhere near any Shared Creative Agenda happening in your group.
What you are doing is emphatically not Sim. It may, however, be something that has been termed “Sim by habit” (which I as an advocate of Sim don’t find entirely fair). “Sim by habit” refers to a whole bundle of Techniques that some gamers just continue applying, without reflection, because “it has to be that way”.
So, you can state a goal (“drama”), but if you only ever “play your character” because you think that’s just “how role-playing works”, then you’re not getting anywhere. Especially when you feel that for your character to succeed (which you want him too), you are required to keep him out of trouble, because that’s also just “how role-playing works”.
It’s like saying: “I want to cook Chinese food tonight, so I’ll buy a steak and grill it because that’s just how cooking works.”
You can only ever get past those habits if you create an awareness of the disconnect in all participants. And as unlearning those habits is hard to do, I suggest you can only do it if you maintain an ongoing communication about it. It’s not enough to have some vague idea of wanting to change something before you start. You need to state clearly that you want to change the way you play, and how, in the moment-by-moment interaction, and then see to it that you really do.
And you also need to get the concerns your players might have off the table. You need to accept their concerns and you need to resist the urge to get self-defendant. You need to reassure them and make sure they understand what you are about.
- Frank
Reithan:
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
Okay, I don’t mean to be rude, but we need to get GNS off the table for now. What we are talking about here, in Big Model terms, are Techniques and Ephemera, and Exploration when it comes to actual content. We are talking about the blow-by-blow “what happens at the table”. GNS is the large scale interpretation over a long instance of play, so it’s not relevant at this moment.
Your Techniques and Ephemera (i.e. what you do, moment-to-moment, while you play) do not enable your stated goals for Exploration results, “plot, drama, intrigue” and “creating a feel of community”. That’s the disconnect I see, at the moment. As long as you don’t have that disconnect sorted out, I daresay you are nowhere near any Shared Creative Agenda happening in your group.
Ok, while I don't find this rude, I do find it incredibly frustrating and counter-intuitive.
I've run into this sort of talk a lot here on the Forge and I guess I'll come right out with it: I don't get it.
I understand that Technique and Ephemera don't inherently define a SCA, but they are still peices of it, and they still impact it, just like every other peice of the puzzle.
It's, to me, like saying, "Well, you can make a lot of different types of houses out of bricks, so the type of bricks you use really has no effect on what type of house you end up with." It's a logical fallacy.
I'm not really sure were to go with this past that, so I'll just leave it there. Please explain or argue it as you see fit.
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
What you are doing is emphatically not Sim. It may, however, be something that has been termed “Sim by habit” (which I as an advocate of Sim don’t find entirely fair). “Sim by habit” refers to a whole bundle of Techniques that some gamers just continue applying, without reflection, because “it has to be that way”.
So, you can state a goal (“drama”), but if you only ever “play your character” because you think that’s just “how role-playing works”, then you’re not getting anywhere. Especially when you feel that for your character to succeed (which you want him too), you are required to keep him out of trouble, because that’s also just “how role-playing works”.
It’s like saying: “I want to cook Chinese food tonight, so I’ll buy a steak and grill it because that’s just how cooking works.”
I have an idea what you're getting at here, and as I said, I think we do fall into this category.
However, this doesn't really shed any light on where this is wrong - just that you think it is wrong.
So, I direct you back to my previous statement. To explore theme & character development & drama, does one not need characters and settings defined at some point?
I mean, if we all just started without characters, with no setting and litterally anything could happen: knights, unicorns, mecha, ponies, spacemen, cavemen, anything. Then, I'd see that as just a garbled lump of chaos - not a story. And "Story Now" is somewhat nuetered with no story, wouldn't you agree?
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
You can only ever get past those habits if you create an awareness of the disconnect in all participants. And as unlearning those habits is hard to do, I suggest you can only do it if you maintain an ongoing communication about it. It’s not enough to have some vague idea of wanting to change something before you start. You need to state clearly that you want to change the way you play, and how, in the moment-by-moment interaction, and then see to it that you really do.
And you also need to get the concerns your players might have off the table. You need to accept their concerns and you need to resist the urge to get self-defendant. You need to reassure them and make sure they understand what you are about.
I'd like to come back to this point after the above-mentioned ones are resolved.
Reithan:
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
Okay, I don’t mean to be rude, but we need to get GNS off the table for now. What we are talking about here, in Big Model terms, are Techniques and Ephemera, and Exploration when it comes to actual content. We are talking about the blow-by-blow “what happens at the table”. GNS is the large scale interpretation over a long instance of play, so it’s not relevant at this moment.
Your Techniques and Ephemera (i.e. what you do, moment-to-moment, while you play) do not enable your stated goals for Exploration results, “plot, drama, intrigue” and “creating a feel of community”. That’s the disconnect I see, at the moment. As long as you don’t have that disconnect sorted out, I daresay you are nowhere near any Shared Creative Agenda happening in your group.
Ok, while I don't find this rude, I do find it incredibly frustrating and counter-intuitive.
I've run into this sort of talk a lot here on the Forge and I guess I'll come right out with it: I don't get it.
I understand that Technique and Ephemera don't inherently define a SCA, but they are still peices of it, and they still impact it, just like every other peice of the puzzle.
It's, to me, like saying, "Well, you can make a lot of different types of houses out of bricks, so the type of bricks you use really has no effect on what type of house you end up with." It's a logical fallacy.
I'm not really sure were to go with this past that, so I'll just leave it there. Please explain or argue it as you see fit.
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
What you are doing is emphatically not Sim. It may, however, be something that has been termed “Sim by habit” (which I as an advocate of Sim don’t find entirely fair). “Sim by habit” refers to a whole bundle of Techniques that some gamers just continue applying, without reflection, because “it has to be that way”.
So, you can state a goal (“drama”), but if you only ever “play your character” because you think that’s just “how role-playing works”, then you’re not getting anywhere. Especially when you feel that for your character to succeed (which you want him too), you are required to keep him out of trouble, because that’s also just “how role-playing works”.
It’s like saying: “I want to cook Chinese food tonight, so I’ll buy a steak and grill it because that’s just how cooking works.”
I have an idea what you're getting at here, and as I said, I think we do fall into this category.
However, this doesn't really shed any light on where this is wrong - just that you think it is wrong.
So, I direct you back to my previous statement. To explore theme & character development & drama, does one not need characters and settings defined at some point?
I mean, if we all just started without characters, with no setting and litterally anything could happen: knights, unicorns, mecha, ponies, spacemen, cavemen, anything. Then, I'd see that as just a garbled lump of chaos - not a story. And "Story Now" is somewhat nuetered with no story, wouldn't you agree?
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on January 24, 2008, 07:51:10 AM
You can only ever get past those habits if you create an awareness of the disconnect in all participants. And as unlearning those habits is hard to do, I suggest you can only do it if you maintain an ongoing communication about it. It’s not enough to have some vague idea of wanting to change something before you start. You need to state clearly that you want to change the way you play, and how, in the moment-by-moment interaction, and then see to it that you really do.
And you also need to get the concerns your players might have off the table. You need to accept their concerns and you need to resist the urge to get self-defendant. You need to reassure them and make sure they understand what you are about.
I'd like to come back to this point after the above-mentioned ones are resolved.
Bret Gillan:
I learned this from Vincent and DitV, but it seems to be the best way to make a community is to create situations, determine what individual NPCs want out of that situation, and specifically what they want from the PCs with regards to that situation. A large part of community is social aid and social pressure. I live in an apartment with a few other people. There are certain things they expect from me: cleanliness, regard for their space and belongings, not having loud sex with my bedroom door open. They also occasionally pressure me to do things: watch movies with them or wash the dishes or whatever.
Now, all that makes for a boring game, but if you blow it up to situations that make for cool stories it still makes sense. A dragon hatchling is discovered. A local hunter wants the PCs to help him hunt it and get it's claws and scales and skull as a trophy. A local druid things it is a sign from the gods of benevolence or whatever, and wants the PCs to help her tame it. The PCs become a part of that community when those wants are expressed, and as they witness and get caught up in the tension that emerges between the hunter and the druid. Also bring in the fact that whichever way they go will have consequences on the community as a whole, the relationship between the druid and the hunter, and so on.
Frank Tarcikowski:
I understand your frustration and know it from first hand experience, but I think we can only do one of two things in this thread: Explain the Big Model, or talk about strategies to improve your play experience. Both at the same time simply will not work out.
Also, I am frustrated myself because I clumsily deleted the long reply I had been writing, so I’ll try again. Please bear in mind that I don’t know you and your group and might just plainly be wrong.
I think your players right now don’t see it as their job to actively work towards the stated goal (“drama”), but rather, they just play their characters like “these guys would act”, and how “these guys would act” is most likely to stay out of trouble. The players are doing all of this without reflecting much about it, because it’s how they learned it and how they think it has to be. This is what you need to make clear to them, without offending them.
You can only get to the “drama” if they start keeping “drama” as a goal in the back of their heads, and start thinking about how what their characters do helps or hinders “drama” to happen. However, you can only ask that of them if you also convince them that you, as well, are working towards the goal to create “drama” (as opposed to, say, “spoiling their plans.”) If they have some concerns about this, based on past experiences, then you need to accept these concerns as valid and work that out. You are requesting them to change how they play, so it’s only fair that they may ask as much of you.
Also, I suggest you tell them up front what your goals were in creating that set-up of NPCs. Invite them to request any NPC they would like to see in the community. Get as much of their input as you can, and be sure to use it! Also, be sure to listen to the good advice in this thread with regard to specific GMing Techniques you can use.
And the crucial part is: Continue to talk about it while you play. If you don’t, you’ll fall back into old patterns all too easily. Specifically, all of you state up front their intentions, whenever they're not obvious. Not the character’s intention, the player’s intention! If a scene is just about getting to know an NPC, then the players might as well know it, so they don’t feel inclined to question him for some kind of plot-relevant information they think you want to reveal to them. If the player wants to force a certain conflict, then you might as well know so you can work with him instead of unintentionally spoiling it. And so forth.
When you start doing that, you’ll start developing Techniques that will enable you, as a group, to go where you want to go with your game. That’s necessary, because right now, you always wind up in the same ol’ place instead. So once these new Techniques start working, then you can think about exactly where it is that you want to go. Then you can think about what it is about “drama” and “feel of community” that you as a group are interested in, in terms of personal investment and long term pay-off. And then, if you get that together, you’ll have the big picture. Then you’ll have Creative Agenda nailed down.
Does that make sense?
- Frank
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