[Nerdinburgh '08] Spione
Callan S.:
Hi Ron,
Quote
It's even quite possible for no character at all to become a protagonist, and indeed, there are spy novels like that. Admittedly, rather cold and bitter ones, but they do exist.
*snip*
I saw exactly what you're talking about, or what's implied by your description, during playtesting - people with role-playing backgrounds had to get over their notion that this character we made up before play is automatically going to be the protagonist of the story. The good news is that, like so many other assumptions we've exploded here at the Forge, it seems insurmountable until you do it, and then you say, "Huh! Why was I so stuck on that?" afterwards.
I've read about two novels where no ones really a protagonist or large sections went without a protagnist. I see them as kind of a pointless activity for atleast myself to pursue - it's not like watching documentary footage, your instead reading to how someone decided to describe something. It's biased. And normally that works fine for me, because typically there's a protagonist and while the authors descriptions are biased, it's because he's making some sort of case about this character here (the protagonist). But without it, it's all bias but without the guts to come out and make a damn case. Expecting a protagonist isn't always just a matter of assumption.
Moreno R.:
Hi, Callan!
I would have liked to use an example taken from spy fiction, but as I said I was never a fan of the genre (but I must say that reading Spione has got me interested. I really didn't know that there was spy fiction like that). So I will use as an example the movie "The Village"
(I hope you had seen it, because I will spoiler a major turning point)
At the beginning, we see the story from the point of view of someone. We assume he is the protagonist, the "hero" of the story. Then, in the middle of the movie, he is wounded, and will die unless someone will get some antibiotics for him. Then we "discover" that the real "hero" is his blind girlfriend, that will face the (literally) unseen dangers of the woods to save him.
You could do a shift like this easily in Spione. You simply narrate what happen. But it would be impossible in PTA or any other game with a initial declaration of "these are the protagonists". And the example is not some obscure artistic movie seen only in festival, but is a movie made for the "common audience", to make money. It's a movie made for the enjoyment of the public, Why should not be able to enjoy this as players?
Other examples: Psycho, or any of the TV series where a supporting cast member overshadow one of the initial protagonist becaise is more like by the audience.
For a literary example you don't need to search for some experimental unknown book: what about the Lord of The Rings? Sam begin as a protagonist?
Moreno R.:
Hi Ralph!
Quote from: Valamir on January 24, 2008, 03:04:42 PM
Let's say its the climactic scene of the whole sordid tale. This is the scene which decides who lives, who dies, whether the principle's family gets out alive, all of it. My card is the King.
Here's the deal...no Kings. What's my ability as the player to impact this flashpoint?...pretty much nothing.
This is entirely possible, yes, but I have some problem with the assumptions you make to made your example.
First: from my reading of the rules and my experience in play (limited as it is), I don't think that Spione lend itself well to any kind of story that end with a big climatic battle A climatic flight, a climatic murder, or a climatic confession I can see, but not a battle. In this kind of story the fight is not even, there can be no uncertain battle. The rules of the game are very clear: if you are a supporting cast character you flee, and live, or you die, or you go to prison. There is no such limit on the Principal destiny, so I suppose that in theory is possible to get a story where the principal win the big final battle (losing all his friends in the fight) and beat the forces that are arrayed against him, but I don't think that this would be the typical outcome, and in any case it would be more likely an ironic take on that like the end of "the prisoner".
Second: you can't decide who lives in the supporting cast in a flashpoint. You can kill or imprison them, yes, but you can't say "they live" or "they will be free", no matter how many card you can stack. Only Fates can do that.
And no matter how many cards he have or doesn't have, the fates are chosen by one person and one person only: the player of the Principal. If you play the principal, only you can decide to disclose (bringing the fates in the game) or not (choosing, right there, that everybody in the supporting cast WILL die or be imprisoned). If you choose to disclose, then only you can decide whih one of the fates you want to use, and for which character in the supporting cast. Who will be saved and who will be lost.
So, no matter if you don't draw your card like, EVER, in the entire game. There is always only one person who can decide this, and it's you. You have 100% power on this, and nobody other at the table can save any supporting cast character. Only you can. [the other player can kill or imprison them, though]
So, isn't "the scene" that "decides who lives, who dies, whether the principle's family gets out alive, all of it.". It's you.
Third, even during a flashpoint where you have no cards, you still have veto power on anything your principal does or say.
Fourth: if X is the number of players, you start at the first flashpoint with a total card number between X and X+4 (and the exact number is fully in the players' control: they choose the sheets and the agency, so they choose how many cards, between X and X+4). This mean that a group of 3 players start with 3-7 cards, drawn from a deck of 12 cards. The chance of not having any cards in the flashpoint for a single player is between 25% (for 3 cards) and 0.2% (for 7 cards), so if you want to have at least 1 cards in any conflict you can simply choose a principal with 3 cards. If both of you do it you can be pretty sure to have always at least one card. (and even if you choose to have principals with 1 card, to a total of 3, you stay out from flashpoints with so few cards that you don't miss much)
Then, as play goes on, the number of cards increase, when the supporting cast fates are decided, and at the "final big battle", the chances to get no cards are even less. With 9 cards, they drop to zero. (from the "almost zero" of 6-up cards)
What if you have more players?
With six players, the initial total card number is between 6 and 10 cards, from a deck of 24 cards. With the lower number there is a real risk of having people don't contribute much to the flashpoint (with 6 cards there is a mean of 1 card each), so let's assume that you will try to minimize this and go to 10 cards. The chance of having no cards in the initial flashpoint is 9%. it can happen, but not too often. And when you get 5-6 other cards from the supporting cast fates, and the end, IF there is a climatic battle, your risk of being out of it is almost nothing.
What I want to demostrate? That yes, your "power" to affect what happen during the flashpoint will vary during the game. Sometimes you will be able to do the impossible (during my third session, a principal player staked all his 4 cards one over another, increasing both effect and range and making a supporting cast character do a "james bond" in an house full of enemies and fleeing with the girl. This didn't save him when I in a later flashpoint blew that character's brain out with a joker+card. What goes around...), sometimes you will be only able to mitigate a staked column with a single card, talk in your character's voice (or vetoing some action that you think he would not do), and having the final word of anybody getting out alive. But you will NEVER be helpless, or out of the narration.
(and in any case, you can talk, suggest, frown, etc, and your voice will be heard. Because the other player want to be heard, too, when you will have "the buck")
Callan S.:
Hi Moreno,
Those are good examples, but they contain a protagonist at some point. I'm refering to not having a protagonist at all as a valid option in play. For example, the first 'Prince of nothing' novel is one of the books I refer to that has no protagonist for an extended time - it appears at the start to, but then you find he's psychotic, then you find he's not even that, he's actually automaton like (and it never really examines the source of his orders). However, awhile in it brings in another character (Akkaman) and I loved him - I've often thought he carried me through that first book. Incidentally he was a spy character - a mage of one of the tyranical mage schools who was sent out to gather information - the character always doubted his actions (which had led to deaths of loved ones) and was scared by nightmares of a past apocalypse every night as part of the schools methods. Not to mention the whore he dearly loved and who dearly loved him, but he always left behind. Ouch, she was a good character too. Great three books, read them all in the end, and the automatons role is pivotal to it all - but if I'd had to deal with just him, I'd have thrown the book away. The automaton was vital to the story, but I needed more than that.
The other book that had no protagonist (and alot of violence) - lets say I got half way, checked the end, saw it was just more like that, and tore the book in half. That's the only book I've ever destroyed. I just felt cheated that I'd gone through all the nastyness he'd described and all it was going to be was more nastyness.
Ron Edwards:
Callan,
I am posting to tell you to stop.
In playing Spione, protagonizing a character (any character) is a constant option. There is literally no way to be stuck in a game with no protagonists unless every person at the table wants to be.
What I'm seeing you say is, "I hate stories with no protagonists! Hate'em!"
If this isn't being presented as a criticism of the game, then there's no point for it to be stated in this thread. OK. You hate them, which is on its own of no interest to anyone but you.
If it is being presented as a criticism of the game, then you are speaking of a game you (a) haven't read or played and (b), as I have emphasized and now repeated, does not require this element which you hate.
I am risking accusations of using moderator power to shut up criticism of my work, but I hope it is clear to thinking people that what you're writing is not criticism. It is a distracting display of opinions which only seem relevant and which are already co-opting the attention of others from their current, already subtle and difficult dialogue. "No protagonist" pushed some button of yours, and I don't see any reason for us to have to be there while you react.
Best, Ron
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