[Dark Ages Vampire] Assessing Creative Agenda
Frank Tarcikowski:
Just posting to let you know that I won't have time to contribute for at least two days. But it seems you're doing fine, so please continue! :-)
- Frank
Caldis:
First things first Dogs Towns. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17964.0 The forums for the game are hosted at this site in the Lumpley games forums farther down the front page. If you truly want to aim for narrativist play it's a good spot to look for clear examples, or you could check actual play for examples.
Secondly I apologize for the delay in my posting, I've actually had to do work at work and the weekend was quite busy. I cant promise I will be posting much faster in the future but I will keep at this as long as you are still interested.
A few points on you latest post.
Mage supporting Nar -- I see what you are saying about Mage having some tools that can support Nar, however just like we discussed earlier those tools used slightly differently can also support Sim play. The idea of having a set theme like "Power corrupts" is also indicative of Sim play rather than Nar if it's set in stone. Narrativism would turn the idea of power corrupting into a question that is asked through play, "Does power corrupt?", where Simulationism takes it as a given of facet of the game that we will have to deal with.
Again I havent read the book but it sounds like the game is likely to lead to incoherent play. It may have tools that can be used to support a CA but it is unclear on what an agenda is or could be or how exactly you would support it. This forces you to either figure it out on your own or to fall back to what you know, which as you've stated is gamism for your players and quite possibly yourself as a GM.
MMO experience -- I know enough about Korean grinders to say that your group is dedicated to their hobby if you managed to get ahead in one.
Mages and humans -- KS13 touched on this already but I agree with his statements in your original thread. The mage/humna relation one is really thrown out of wack by their effect on magic. It's an interesting twist that could be used in a Nar game to question power corrupting by juxtaposing the life as a mage with a life in the human community and seeing the affects of one on the other, but you dont really have any mechanical support for that unless you see it in their vices and virtues? I can see how your players approaching it in a gamist manner can see it as a danger though. Walking into town is essentially dropping your weapons and leaving themselves vulnerable.
His suggestion on supporting cast players is something you may want to take a look at as well.
I dont know if you'd be up to it but this talk has provided a lot of information on your game but it hasnt really shown it in it's glory. Can you tell us of an instance of play, prerferably one where everyone really seemed to enjoy the game? Some event that came up and the characters had to react to, what the players did and how you reacted to their actions, how it all wrapped up?
Reithan:
Don't apologizing for posting late, I'm glad you posted at all. :P
I think we've adequately covered the fact that tool can usually support almost any given CA with the right twist, though maybe I was mistaken thinking Mage's tool are biased towards Nar. They do have suggested theme/mood in each book. However, I'm not really clear on how 'set in stone' the developers intended them to be. There aren't any real RULES set to show that "yes, power ALWAYS corrupts", but it is a theme to the setting/background. It's basically suggested that you explore this theme, though it's also not certain that power will corrupt in play, it's more of a "Watch out, power corrupts, you should be careful to make sure it doesn't corrupt you." So, to me, it's more like "Power Has Corrupted Others - Will it corrupt you, too?" So, there's still a question there.
In terms of the developers STATED goals? All 100% Nar. Everything's couched in Drama terms. A gaming group is called a "troupe", a game is a "Chapter" they explicitly explain "Scenes" in a game, and a game over a period of time is a "Chronicle" and they go over again and again and again "Story and Drama above all else" until it basically becomes a gregorian chant.
MMO - Yeah, we were fairly hardcore into that game at the time, but we've become a lot more casual over time. We originally had a HUGE very tight-knit clan in that game, and we got up to what could be considered "second-string" in terms of political power on our server. But eventually internal conflict within our alliance infected our clan and it all fell apart. Such is the way of politics, I suppose. It was a damn fun ride, though.
Mage/Human relations are 'complicated' in the setting. The 5 main Mage orders use humans in different ways, several of the orders try to do this in a more humanitarian way, but one of the big things that's driven home in the game is Mage ARE human. Sure, you can cast some spells, but you're still a flesh-and-blood mortal man. So, players are encouraged through both rules and color to not stray too far from their humanity and become monsters (power might corrupt, remember). It is easily possible for Mages and humans to coexist and even work together on common goals - but a mage's bigger nastier spells become dangerous and unstable in view of the "sleepers."
Supporting cast characters are actually already worked into the game rules. Players can use XP to buy a merits including: "Allies", "Contacts", "Mentor" and "Retainer" which can give them access to such benefits as he described. These can also be purchased at character creation.
As to an example of "glory" in my game, ah how in-depth are you looking for? I can think of a couple good "AWESOME!" moments there, but I'm not sure how much detail I can remember in-depth.
Caldis:
Quote from: Reithan on January 29, 2008, 07:32:41 AM
In terms of the developers STATED goals? All 100% Nar. Everything's couched in Drama terms. A gaming group is called a "troupe", a game is a "Chapter" they explicitly explain "Scenes" in a game, and a game over a period of time is a "Chronicle" and they go over again and again and again "Story and Drama above all else" until it basically becomes a gregorian chant.
The only problem is that drama does not equal narrativism. You can have "Story and Drama" with any CA the difference with narrativism is that the themes created by the game are in the hands of the players and that creating those themes is the point of play, address of premise. If your players want that type of play then you will have to do as Paul suggested, change the way you think about gming. You cant continue to worry about the setting being dangerous or looking to outside sources as inspiration for play. What you need to do is get the players into creating those themes. I think you may be on to something with talk of virtues and vices, I dont know that the limits WW put on their use are really helpful to this. If you can use the vices & virtues the players chose and team them up with community members as tools to get the players to chose how these attributes define the character then you can have play that will reinforce the community and give you meaningful Nar play.
Again this is a big change and if you are just trying to make your game better and not fix it it may be more effort thant you want to put into it. The Mage rules dont seem to be really helping you get this type of play, neither for you or for your players. You might try looking at Sorceror for a similar content game that is narrativist and does treat that corruption issue as a question.
The other option is Simulationist play. I dont think it's as much a stretch from where you are at, it may in fact be what you are doing now. If you go for a participationist version you can use surprises and get the players wrapped up in your complex dramatic story. However this does depend largely on your skill at creating something dramatic they can experience. A good idea is to take things the players show interest in and wrap it into the dramatic story. Maybe Frank can give some more detail on Sim technique, in this recent thread he discusses a game that sounded quite dramatic.
Lastly there's always gamism. Your group does seem to slip into it easily enough. You can use some of the same skills you would use in Simulationist play for gamism when it comes to creating a dramatic story to take part in. The focus is a little different on where the players have input. You can check out this for a good example of gamism with a solid story. Even if you are not interested in this style of play you should be aware that your players do show signs of thinking this way when they are wary of the unknown. They dont want to make a mistake and 'lose' because they were too trusting.
Quote
Supporting cast characters are actually already worked into the game rules. Players can use XP to buy a merits including: "Allies", "Contacts", "Mentor" and "Retainer" which can give them access to such benefits as he described. These can also be purchased at character creation.
Did anyone buy them though? If not handing out free ones can give them connections to the community you are seeking. Of course it's where you go from there that is really important.
Quote
As to an example of "glory" in my game, ah how in-depth are you looking for? I can think of a couple good "AWESOME!" moments there, but I'm not sure how much detail I can remember in-depth.
It doesnt necessarily need to be in depth. Start with how the situation came up, describe the characters involved, the steps taken to move the situation forward, who pushed it forward, and how it concluded. The important things to remember and comment on is how you and the other players acted and reacted to make the game move and what made the people involved in the game.
Reithan:
Ok, maybe I'm wrong on this one, but I don't agree with what you're saying at the beginning, here. Just because you're playing for a Nar CA, does NOT mean you can't have a dangerous setting or use outside sources as inspiration, as far as I understand.
To my understanding, Nar/Sim/Gam is a descriptor of your group's basic goal or agenda (Creative AGENDA) to their playing.
The way I've explained this to myself and others is "What wins?"
For example, say I gave a group these questions:
1. Would you rather play a strong character with lots of tactics, powers and abilities who got to travel to cool places and take part in an epic struggle, or play an average character who gets to take part in a striking and in-depth drama that explores themes you're interested in and engages you on a deep creative level?
2. Would you rather play your character to his concept and really get into his skin, take part in all the cool things in a really engaging setting or play a character with a bit less defined background and setting, but a very intriguing story that changes and twists based on player input and lets the players really explore lots of thematic and dramatic elements and really craft an awesome story?
3. Would you rather play a character that takes part in a huge stuggle, has an opportunity to win against great odds and display a great tactical flair, or a normal joe in an awesome setting that you can really identify with and 'get into'?
Basically, at some point the players will have to choose what's MOST important to them. Do you win the fight, or explore your drama and theme? Do you stay true to setting immersion, or bend a little to win the fight? Eventually Gam, Nar & Sim will be at odds in your gameplay. It will happen at some point: which one is more important to you? Which one WINS?
On the other hand, even though Nar wins, it doesn't mean you're not allowed to have any Gam elements in your game, nor does it mean you can't have any Sim elements.
To say we can't have a dangerous setting or use outside inspiration, to me, reads like "Nar or nothing". I don't like that stance.
Quote from: Caldis on January 29, 2008, 07:05:52 PM
Quote
Supporting cast characters are actually already worked into the game rules. Players can use XP to buy a merits including: "Allies", "Contacts", "Mentor" and "Retainer" which can give them access to such benefits as he described. These can also be purchased at character creation.
Did anyone buy them though? If not handing out free ones can give them connections to the community you are seeking. Of course it's where you go from there that is really important.
Yes, several people have a couple of those merits. I don't think anyone's gotten "Retainer", but we have a few with "Allies" and "Contacts" and one with "Mentor", so there are some SCC around - they've just been used as tools, mainly though - so hopefully we can move past that.
I'll put up that play description, but I'd like to read your response to this first, just so I know what you're driving at, here.
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