Controls, DeBuffs and PC avatars
John Adams:
As you can read in this thread, my group is drifting into Vanilla Narr or a more functional, non-illusionist Sim. I'm wrestling with a thorny problem created (or at least highlighted) by that transition.
In our game a player can only influence the SIS through his character. I like this strong avatarism and want to keep and reinforce that moving forward. Problem: the task resolution-oriented magic system allows many spells which are OK when applied to NPCs but which absolutely crush avatarism when applied to PCs. The spells I'm thinking of are all controls or deBuffs. There are similar effects in the combat system which might pose similar problems, but the spells are a more pressing concern.
In a recent example, a player suggested a Situation which led directly to his PC fighting the rest of the PCs. (See the thread linked above.) I temporarily buffed his PC to a level that could cope with fighting the whole group and it promised to be a fun, interesting fight. The outcome: in short order a mage used some fairly low-level control spells to root him to the ground and steal his weapon. Everyone got out of his way and left the player completely unable to do anything but curse. The player had a very poor chance of avoiding this outcome.
This example is mild compared to what could happen if higher level control spells hit a PC and let's say paralyzed him or turned him to stone or otherwise completely neutralized him. The player set aside valuable free time and traveled a long distance to play with us, now 10 minutes into the session he is effectively out of the game, unable to play, and this was directly caused by the actions of one of his friends. That's the worst case scenario. I hope it's clear why this is NO FUN and could lead to resentment and other social contract issues. Basically, we broke the social contract by inviting a friend to play, then barred him from playing.
So what are the possible solutions?
1) Give players direct input into the game, apart from their avatars
2) Totally re-work the magic system etc. to disallow controls and debuffs
3) Ask players not to use those spells on other players, for the stated reasons
4) Add a blanket rule which protects PCs from those effects, let the spells work normally on NPCs
Only #4 seems practical, but it's such an ugly solution. I'm hoping one of you can suggest something better.
I don't think this would be a problem if the PC was neutralized after significant effort if he had a fair chance to "fight back" and simply lost. It doesn't bother people in the same way if they are defeated in combat for instance. The crux is that they only get 1 roll to save vs' these spells and typically a poor chance to succeed. If we change that globally to give them a better chance, that amounts to either a partial (#4) or complete (#2) nerf on existing PC spells. That's going to go over like a lead balloon.
Help!
sirogit:
Hello!
Why is #4 an ugly situation? You've already stipulated that the character in this case gets some special "bonus to make this interesting"(The buff you mentioned), what's wrong with giving him increased protection from paralysis?
Are you sure that when characters enter combat, you want them to risk having their character taken out of the game by how the dice fall?
What is a "fair fight"? What's "Significant effort"?
- Sean Musgrave
(Also, I offer two kludges. The Grognard one: Keep a back up sheet, and the Final Fantasy one: Make control abilities granulated, so that petrify abilities take a few turns to really petrify someone.)
Caldis:
I think your problem starts before the debuffing and incapacitating of this character. What would have happened if they had gone ahead with the fight? Could this character have killed some or all of the others, could they have killed him? In either case people are being eliminated from the action, heck even if the battle just incapacitates characters it could remove them from the game for a long time.
If this is a serious concern I think you really have to look at option 1 as your best solution, even if it's only in a limited manner like a temporary second character.
Callan S.:
Suggestion: Players have a point pool - they can spend points to totally negate a control spell, or they can accept it but still have the option of buying out - and as a bonus, the longer they accept it for, the less it costs to buy out. You can only buy out on the start of a turn, not just as the controller is actually going to complete what the control was about.
masqueradeball:
Is this always an issue or just in PvP style play?
In D&D, for instance, it seems like debuffs/controls that affect PCs are away to encourage party cohesion. Like, if the fighter is turned to stone everyone else so, "Holy Smokes, we lost THE FIGHTER" and they start thinking of ways to free him so they can get back to their tactically cohesive combat unit. D&D PvP is just nasty, and normally comes down to lucky rolls as the system isn't really balanced for that sort of thing.
Also, could the way the GM/group treat the passage of time cure this ill... like,
"OK Bob's out of play for like a day because someone froze him in ice. Lets skip to the next day as soon as possible. What are people doing?"
You could give PC's a common origin (like they're all, um, exalted by the sun god or something) that makes them immune/resistant to such effects, or otherwise make such immunities readily available in-game, like purchasable powers or magic items that wouldn't (for whatever reason) be as readily available to the badies.
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