Persuasion rules
lumpley:
Here's an old friend of mine. He's speaking of In a Wicked Age but it's a great general topic across my games:
Quote from: PorterO on February 02, 2008, 05:14:15 PM
So there's no mechanic for the power of persuasion? I can see how that would be good in the sense that it compels the players to roleplay any verbal interaction. However, it has the down side of reducing all conflict to physical contest. Or am I missing something? Could the old lady in Rustin's example choose to roll dice yet narrate any success she has as delivering a particularly compelling argument? One that leads to the town fool realizing it's a good idea to get a free meal when he can? Or can she only mind fuck him enough that he capitulates to her demand (ala Hannibal Lecter)? We create characters who posses physical gifts that exceed our own, why not give them rhetorical gifts as well?
Here's where I'm at. The games I'm thinking of - Dogs in the Vineyard, In a Wicked Age, Poison'd, Synthia - do two things that make mechanical persuasion problematic. Thing one: they expect you to play your character with some passion, based on your identification with her. Thing two: they set your character and the other players' characters strongly against one another (Dogs least so, but even Dogs occasionally).
In Dogs, you can be like, "what's at stake is your conviction about polygamy," for instance, and then you can roll dice on me, and we raise and see back and forth, maybe escalate, and let's say eventually that you win. My character's conviction was up for grabs, you won it, so I'm obligated to play my character convinced. For the most part this works out fine, because a) my character's conviction is probably a minor point between us, overall, and b) all those raises and sees were an argument. Your character presented her case, and sometimes my character admitted her point. At the end, even if your character's argument didn't convince me, I can see how it might have convinced my character, and play accordingly.
In the Wicked Age, though, the dice are too fast and there's no time for an argument to develop and resolve. So if you were able to say "I convince you of blahblah ... clatter clatter ... win!" then I'd be in the position of having to play my character convinced, without having any clue what convinced her. Worse, I'd have to do it when you were convincing her of something very significant between us - something directly affecting our best interests.
So for the Wicked Age I decided that playing your character with passion would win, and if that sometimes disadvantages the player with less social skill, well, same as in Dogs - if you're losing the argument, throw a punch.
In Poison'd, same problem with the fast dice and the potential significance of conviction, but I solved it in a different way. In Poison'd, the solution is bargains. You want me to do something, you don't have to punch me - make me a deal. Accepting a deal gives me some mechanical power over you going forward, so if I like the deal I'll surely take it. The significance of conviction falls aside (which suits the subject matter well), replaced by the significance of who's promised to do what for whom, and who's making good and who isn't. There's no need for persuasion mechanics because persuasion in Poison'd boils down to buying people.
And in Synthia, there's a whole additional problem. (For those of you who don't know, Synthia's a game I haven't released yet, based on Blade Runner, about cops and sex androids.) Synthia absolutely needs to have good, working seduction mechanics. If I'm playing the title character and you're playing the cop, I have to be able to get you in bed, if I win the dice, even if it's not in your character's best interests.
So my solution to that problem solves the persuasion problem as well. In Synthia, if I win the dice, I say "I seduce you" or "I persuade you of ___," and you say how. You say what my character must have done to get yours into bed, or to get yours to change her mind. That way, playing her as seduced or as persuaded isn't difficult - you know exactly what happened and how it worked on her.
So Porter, make sense?
Followup questions always welcome!
-Vincent
Troels:
I've had some fun with persuasion in IaWA. The way I run it is this, if someone beats someone in an argument, they offter the loser a deal: Come around to my side and do things my way, and suffer no or reduced damage. If you take it, well, you were convinced. If you don't, you take damage as your resolve and confidence is shaken, but refuse to budge despite having your arguments blown out of the water. Like I have seen some times IRL.
Example from AP:
The fated avenger of the defeated clan is on his way across the moors with the black spear of vengeance to lay waste to the enemy lord and all the seed of his loins. Trouble is, the avenger's (dead, now ghostly) sister was forcibly married to the lord, and had three children. Her ghost appears before him and attempts to persuade him to spare the children. Dice roll, she wins. He has to accept that if he kills his nieces he's doomed to Hell. He takes the damage, saying "I admit that this act will doom me to Hell, but honour is more important than salvation". Chilling stuff, as I recall.
This way, actually being persuaded is chosen by the player, and the clever persuader will make sure that this is not totally incompatible with Best Interests.
PorterO:
Yeah, Vince, that really helps clear things up. I recognize that it's a particularly troubling problem, and I think you've done a good job of accounting for persuasion in each of your games (though in different ways). I look forward to Synthia. I think that mechanic could work very well; it gives the persuading player an avenue of non-physical conflict but at the same time protects the persuadee's right to define his or her character.
Thanks for the example Troels. I think you demonstrate how persuasion can be used in IaWA, though the players must understand that unlike other games, persuasion cannot be used to force a player to act/believe, only to punish him/her if he/she doesn't act in a particular way. But, if I understand it right, even if I choose a physical means of conflict I ultimately get to the same result: act, or I'll smack you with the stick. In that sense physical and verbal conflict are on the same level, and I can live with that.
Valvorik:
I think that's the important thing to see, that in IAWA you can get the "stick" to beat someone with in negotiating alternatives to dice lost narrating a physical action or a social/emotional etc. action, you are not limited to imagining only fights and wrestling and races as actions. The social/emotional etc. actions should be "intense" though to bring out the dice and warrant the resolution, such as "inciting passions" in the text.
Mark Causey:
Quote from: Troels on February 06, 2008, 10:20:51 AM
Her ghost appears before him and attempts to persuade him to spare the children. Dice roll, she wins.
I'm confused. What concrete action did the ghost take that the avenger's player not want to happen? Weren't they just talking?
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