Things that just ARE plain taboo, as far as RPGs are concerned
Ron Edwards:
Hey!
I've posted my initial moderator statement which included "please do not post again until I do." Willow, help us out - please follow the moderation.
Everyone: do not post here again until I do.
Best, Ron
Ron Edwards:
Hello,
At last, I'm getting to it. My apologies for the wait. This thread has been generally courteous at the personal level and includes a lot of interesting and important applications ... yet also, it presents a variety of details that need to be moderated.
To begin, this is not going to be the kind of moderation you may have seen elsewhere. I am not going to ask that everyone smooth over disagreements by pretending to agree or to refrain from posting. Nor am I going to point the finger and say "don't be inappropriate." All of the moderation is about adapting the topic to the specific and perhaps unique environment of the Forge, and I consider the infractions to be a function of learning toward that end.
At its heart, this moderation should provide a lot of inspiration to others to post about difficult or emotional topics here, because I hope it will show how that should be done.
I'll finish this post with a series of requirements for this thread if it is to continue. Grinning Moon will be the decision-maker.
Part 1: Basic Forge posting
I have learned over the years that one of the least productive, least usable topics possible is to begin by being annoyed with something you observed at another website. If you must be emotionally provoked by something on another site, then deal with it there, in terms of that site, and concerning that thing. Do not come here as if to a safer territory "among friends" in order to complain about being offended, to seek commiseration or support, or anything of the sort. This principle is one of the bases for my often-used phrase that the Forge is not the internet.
Does that mean Forge threads cannot include links from elsewhere, or that topics elsewhere cannot spark discussion here? No, it does not. Both of those are encouraged. The differences are that you are raising an issue that begins here, understandable in terms of the site goals (i.e. the forum parameters), and that some specific social dust-up that exists elsewhere isn't being extended to include this site (the latter might not be the case for this thread, but it happens a lot).
Given all that, choosing forums appropriately is important here. For one thing, it means I don't have to jump around moving things about, which gets confusing for everyone at the very least. More importantly, it means that you have thought - carefully - about posting here. If you can't figure out a way to bring up a certain topic in any of the existing forums, that's often a damn good sign that your topic isn't compatible with the purposes of the site. Since the Forge does not include socializing for its own sake as a goal, unlike Story Games or RPG.net (which is fine), lots of topics simply aren't for here and can easily be addressed there.
When in doubt, or if you think you can't find the right forum, send me a private message. Most often, I can help you place it, perhaps by refining a topic a little, but actually, usually not. People routinely say "this wouldn't be a Forge topic" and are mistaken. But the best way to establish that, one way or the other, is merely to ask. I am friendly.
Regarding content at the Forge, I recently posted a thread to help with that: Game content and Forge policy, which I hope is helpful for this thread too.
Part 2: Community issues
In the past, people have used private messages to clarify their positions to one another and to extend discussions. However, I do not recommend doing so, or rather, the default should be not to do it. The Forge discussions exist in order to enrich the community understanding of something, not to create factions or to help anyone save face. I understand that sometimes such messaging is really constructive, and I've seen that myself. However, most of the time, the net effect more resembles lobbying and influencing, which is to say, a form of controlling the external discussion. That's basically dishonest behavior. If someone messages you to clarify something, why couldn't they have clarified it in the discussion? Often because they seek your approval and alliance, and would prefer that your public posting in doing so appear spontaneous.
The productive version has a horrid tendency to evolve into the dishonest one, even for well-motivated and basically honest individuals. This is why I continually toy with the idea of shutting the damn things off except for purposes of contacting moderators.
Therefore: when using private messages, please reflect very carefully about your content. The day I conclude that there's a shadow community of invisible alliances and PM-negotiated politics underlying the public Forge discussions, that's the day that feature disappears. When receiving a message that's obviously jockeying for such support ("let's us reasonable people talk privately"), I recommend ignoring it or replying with a request for it to be public.
All that said, it's perfectly OK to exchange emails and to conduct conversations entirely off the Forge. The reason I say this is because you are all free people and I am not exerting control over how you want to interact. I'm exerting authority over how you do it here. And for whatever reason, going to private email tends not to shift into that nasty version of the interaction that I described above - why not, I don't know, but it doesn't happen as much that way. So let's work toward that.
Here's another community issue: pay attention to moderation in a given thread - there are no exceptions. When I say do not post, do not post. Your very soul may be exploding with the need to address whatever reaction you've felt, but I do not care. Go scribble it in tiny letters in a notebook, hammer-type it all out on your blog, whatever, but do not post it after I say not to.
As part of that concept, people should understand that posting here is always a reply to the entire thread. Even if you're dealing with one post or point that really motivated you to reply, your post and that bit do not exist in isolation from everything else. That means you need to have read the entire thread before adding to it. Often, re-visiting a longer thread from the beginning is incredibly valuable, and I encourage everyone to do it every time, rather than reading the latest couple of posts and proceeding as if they were all that existed.
Part 3: Discussion standards
Forge topics need to be substantive for purposes of discourse. That means they represent a reasoned position, or in some cases, an actual occurrence, either of which raises interesting questions. That doesn't mean they have to be erudite philosophical mini-essays. We've found that any instance of actual play will do the job, or even a very basic question like "have publishers made any money," or whatever. The point is that experiencing a reaction is not sufficient. The internet is full of places where one can post a reaction and generated 10,000 responses. The Forge isn't part of that.
So if you experience a reaction to something, somewhere, usually felt as "I must say something about this or simply die," then that's a sign right there not to post it, in that form, at the Forge. Another way to put it is that, although emotions are fine things, expressing your emotions cannot be a primary purpose for a thread's existence. In this thread, the entire content of the first post, as well as the choice of thread title, boil down to such a reaction. To which the only rational response can be, regardless of whether one shares or does not share the reaction, "I don't care."
All of this goes double for posting replies. Nothing generates confusion and stupidity from otherwise-excellent thinkers than compounding reactions with counter- and support-reactions. You see, that's why and how I'm moderating this thread - it has nothing to do with "getting along" or with "appropriateness," it has to do with the fact that there are pockets of irrationality and increased confusion already here in the thread, despite a couple of heroic efforts to forestall them.
Let me explain some more about this. Fundamentally, Forge discussions can't be about opinions. A reasoned viewpoint or position is fine, not necessarily posed to convince so much as making a case for others to judge on their own. Also, by definition, such a position is subject to change if better arguments or relevant points are brought up. An opinion, on the other hand, is presented as a fixed position that cannot be dislodged. People post opinions in order to show that they will resist others' input, not to considers such input. (Once, my essay "System Does Matter" was described as an opinion piece. I disagree. It is a position piece, which is why a few of its points have undergone changes since I wrote it nine years ago - people raised better arguments and relevant points.)
This thread is unfortunately riddled with opinions, none of which are worth a fart in hell in Forge terms, however deeply they may be felt, and all of which need to be disregarded as topics of conversation here ... unless they can be retooled into positions, in which case they need backing with coherent justification, and in which case they are subject to critique. Most importantly, if that happens, the people posting them will be admitting the possibility of changing them if presented with powerful argument.
There are two sub-features of opinions which highlight their undesirability, both of which can be found so far.
1. Using weasel phrases along the lines of "I don't support censorship, but this stuff shouldn't be published," and similar.
2. Stating personal impressions as if they were careful observations or widespread views. One example was the statement about how gamers or publishers embraced the principle of full freedom of content.
Folks, when you write a post, read it carefully first. Such phrases are a red flag to the critical thinker; he or she realizes right then that the written material is not being honest, and starts over.
For instance,#1 above might actually reflect a rational position along the lines of "I don't want others to publish that stuff because it hurts my chances of marketing my own game." That's not only honest, but it's subject to discussion and modification based on what others might have to say.
I am willing to bet that each such phrase in the thread so far does have a rational and honest version, in which the writer takes the responsibility for the issue upon himself or herself. I'd like to see them! That'd be a great thing for this thread.
Part 4: The topic
First, several people have tried to give this thread some identity that's suited to the Forge, and I greatly appreciate that. I tried in my own way, in part, by shifting it to Publishing because that seems to me what it's about: choices about publishing. I'll carry on with that by making some points about the assertions so far - which I hope will show how they need to be changed.
There is no "the hobby" as a social phenomenon which can be harmed or helped by offending or not offending people. There is no "we publishers" as a policy-making, policy-following body of participants. There is no "the industry" as the phrase is generally applied. There is no "all RPGs ...", as the term is a legacy at best. Talking about any of these things as if it existed in a defined, functioning, observable phenomenon is empty gas. I know this is a lot of bald assertion I'm throwing out, and it all flies in the face of 90% of gamer-culture rhetoric, but all of these are brutal conclusions derived from years of solid discussion here. I can help with understanding that better later if anyone likes.
Therefore this entire topic must shift away from what any of the above "must" or "ought" to do, or what publishing a game like Black Tokyo "would do" to any of them. All such talk is empty posturing.
Instead, I suggest that the topic can be constructively, and honestly, re-framed as what an individual publisher should consider (a) when publishing such a game, and (b) when someone else publishes one, especially if it's similar to one's own game in some way without the boobies or whatever. I should clarify that (a) does not concern whether to publish it.
Also, many role-playing games and related activity designs are so far over the edge as to make Black Tokyo look boring and trivial. I have published a game for which rules are different for male and female players (the real people). Em has designed a Jeepform which investigates and possibly promotes polyamory. Joe McDonald has designed a means of marketing Hentai role-playing (interestingly, without writing such a game). Ben Lehman has published a game in which naked teenagers live in post-apocalyptic nests, engaging in a variety of petting and sex which affect their effectiveness in their next bout of fighting aliens. I could go on and on - the independent RPG scene has so disintegrated long-held real-world boundaries of RPG design that merely designing rules for semen-spurting tentacles to spurt is ... pretty damn lame.
What I'm saying is that there's a whole lot of new game design available to investigate in order to develop viewpoints about what is and what is not suitable as content for one's game.
Conclusion
Will this thread continue? Grinning Moon, this is up to you. Here's my list of requirements, none of which, I think, is actually hard.
State its topic. It can't simply report your reaction or opinion; it has to be a concrete issue that faces a publisher. You may of course express your viewpoint or position, but doing so means that you yourself will open up to the possibility that your position might change. That means that you do not seek to justify phrase and statements you've made so far, because we're starting with this topic as you define it now.
As the initiator of the thread, you are also sort of a deputy moderator or discussion leader. That means that you will not get any of your buttons pushed, even if someone pushes them.
Find the points made so far that you think are best for all of us to follow up with. Make sure not to include opinion/reaction statements in the points you choose.
As we continue, acknowledge valid points made by others and consider fairly how they relate to your position.
For what it's worth, I hope you say "yes." I applaud your enthusiasm in posting at this site, and I hope all this moderation shows you how powerful and useful your input can become.
Best, Ron
Grinning Moon:
Quote
Will this thread continue? Grinning Moon, this is up to you.
In that case, damn right it'll continue. This issue has a lot of meaning for me.
The Topic
So, here it is: When I create a game, is it important that said game is more than just pages of smutty artwork and naked girls? On that same train of thought, if my game isn't much more than those two things, does it become something that not only might be 'unimportant' in nature - but should be consciously seen as unimportant? When we're designing something, should we be balancing that something's ethical quality against our own personal rights?
My opinion here is 'yes' on both accounts.
Ron Edwards:
Cool. This thread is a "go."
I need a bit more clarification in order to participate, finally. When you say "important," what does that mean - specifically, toward what end, and, for whom?
Can you provide an example of a game, a real one, that illustrates this importance? Especially if it entirely lacks naked chicks and semen spurts and whatnot.
Best, Ron
Eero Tuovinen:
Hey, Publishing is actually a pretty logical place for this thread. Good going. Also: I want to know as well what an important game is like. I have my own ideas that are pretty entangled in my own conception of cultural value, but Moon must have an interesting take as well. I'm especially interested in whether the important roleplaying games are some of the ones that are mostly focused on simulated murder and high-way robbery.
Myself, my general take on the topic is that I'm simply not smart enough - I'm not smart enough to declare for all the world how some things have meaning and others don't. Sexuality is a huge driving force of human life and culture, and we're nowadays going through a constant revolution of sexuality in very public places. While I personally wouldn't know what to do with a sexually-colored set of d20 rules, I also wouldn't and couldn't say how those rules might not be a part of some important-in-hindsight cultural current. Saying that erotic literature in general has no meaning or is "just" smutty artwork implies somehow that things are different with other art, which is quite a claim when you consider how we human monkeys actually are. And I really mean this, too - while I personally consider many fetishes of hentai porn psychologically horrible, even then I couldn't begin to say that actually ostracizing and forbidding them would be beneficial to society or individual - I'm just not enough of a psychologist or sociologist to claim such, not to speak of moral leader.
There's also the viewpoint that some games are, actually, not written to be played. They're called "concept games" (like "concept cars", I guess), often with some derision, and their meaning is often enough more in exploring the form and faciliating discussion between roleplayers than actually faciliating play. Some could even say that the late-'90s style of game design encouraged a certain kind of concept games as a major force in the marketplace, with lots of games published primarily for reading pleasure, with rules and application a secondary concern to fantasy fiction. Perhaps something like Black Tokyo could be interpreted more in this light - if it is pornography, perhaps it's porn intended for roleplayers to savour as reading material; perhaps a committed roleplayer would find special pornographic values in rpg rules of that kind even when they would never consider actually playing with those rules. Actually, considering things realistically, I'd imagine that this must be a major factor in the sales of a book like this anyway - I'm not seeing how great masses of roleplayers would have the comfort level for actually playing a d20 game about sexuality.
So yeah, I'm pretty much not seeing a cultural problem. Moon's suggestion about active ostracism of certain kinds of games (certain themes in games?) falls to deaf ears for me simply because I don't see the ethical problem. I would be interested in a clear and robust treatise of what the ethical problem with pornography is, though, if you perceive such! Perhaps, if a pornographic roleplaying product actually were such an ethical problem instead of just an object of moral rhetoric for subcultures I don't understand (American Evangelist right-wing?), something should indeed be done.
(Grinning Moon, do you have a real name you'd like to share with us? I feel a bit stupid corresponding with an astronomical anomaly, even one that's quite verbally competent...)
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