Things that just ARE plain taboo, as far as RPGs are concerned
Willow:
Quote from: Grinning Moon on February 25, 2008, 12:49:01 PM
So, here it is: When I create a game, is it important that said game is more than just pages of smutty artwork and naked girls? On that same train of thought, if my game isn't much more than those two things, does it become something that not only might be 'unimportant' in nature - but should be consciously seen as unimportant? When we're designing something, should we be balancing that something's ethical quality against our own personal rights?
I suspect most people will agree with you here- if one is judging a game as a game, if there's really truly no game there and just pages of art, then it isn't much of a game at all, but a book of art (pornographic or otherwise) with some meager game-like trappings. If I published, say, Turtles: the RPG, and it was just pages and pages of pictures of turtles, I'd look pretty silly, right? So it seems reasonable to make the same conclusion about other types of art and images.
However, when the content actually contains a game or other creative procedures, does the artistic content really make things any less game like? When I'm rolling that d20 (or whatever), does it matter if I'm rolling to see if I hit the kobold, or if I find an awesome turtle, or if I do something naughty with my tentacles? In both instances there is a game mechanic content, and a narrative story content.
My point then, is that a book that contains smutty artwork and pictures of naked girls (or boys), is not necessarily without game content. Some books out there might be all smut and no dice, but that doesn't mean all such potential games are.
Ben Lehman:
Hey, Moon:
So, as Ron mentioned, I publish a game which features sexual acts and sexual content pretty prominently: escalating physical intimacy, including sex, is the core of "levelling up" your character. I'm not sure that that's the sort of thing that you're talking about here: it's hard for me to tell if you're talking about sexual content in terms of game play (that is, people actually sitting around the table and playing a game whose fictional content includes sexual material) or in terms of book presentation (this is a book where there are pictures of naked elves and also game rules.)
These two are very different things, although they can overlap. Could you clarify which one your talking about?
I can talk about my motivating reasons for choosing to produce #1 (the game with sexual content), but I want to make sure I'm on topic here. I can also discuss why I chose not to pursue #2 (the book with sexual illustration.)
yrs--
--Ben
guildofblades:
The Guild of Blades had a working relationship with G-Spot Games. They have been a couple of our long term play testers, plus we do distribution fulfillment for their games.
Some consider their game to be, well, just wrong in, oh so many ways. Back in the day when we announced we would represent them on a distribution level, we got death threats, our server got hacked, people swore they would put us out of business and all sorts of silliness.
I look at it this way. Not my usual flavor, but they make for a good laugh. And while they are not the kinds of games I want to publish myself, if everyone only ever published topics that were totally PC, or only what came before, boy, as an industry the diversity of product available for people to explore would be both limited and likely boring. So I think it is entirely fine for there to be games with subject matter, themes and content that go outside of the box and explores different areas of the human experience. The folks at G-Spot games sell plenty of games to party stores, tattoo joints, goth clubs and a few adult book/video stores. If people didn't make games that targeted to those audiences with things that interested with them, then would those people simply never partake in the gaming hobby? I dunno. But I think there should be games designed to interest everyone. Even those that don't interest me. Even those which might offend me.
And if you are offended by a game....don't buy it. And tell your friends not to buy it either. That is certainly everyone's right. But I personally don't think anyone should have the right to dictate to other what games should and shouldn't be allowed. My god, I mean, who would get to make THAT decision? Lol.
Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.ms-crm-consulting.com
David Artman:
Quote from: guildofblades on February 25, 2008, 06:56:17 PM
...But I personally don't think anyone should have the right to dictate to other what games should and shouldn't be allowed. My god, I mean, who would get to make THAT decision? Lol.
A new division of the ESRB, recruited from the RPG.net Roleplaying Open forum. ;)
Seriously, though, I am going to point out that there's some unmentioned aspects to this issue:
1) Local Laws - Just as porn videos must be controlled, to restrict access to minors, so would porn games. Oddly enough (in my area) one can go into Spenser's (a novelty store chain) and buy stuff like edible undies and sex board games and so forth--with no apparent containment keep the (usually middle-school-aged) customers clear of the T&A. Thus, I am sure local officials would have something to say about presentation on store shelves... but I haven't noticed a coherent guiding principle which would allow me to guess at what laws would adhere to RPG products.
2) Market Acceptance - A potentially offensive (if not VERY offensive) niche specialty (hentai) of a niche product (RPGs as books) of a niche community (gamers) is already at enough of a competitive disadvantage that I would simply pity the poor writer/publisher who was told "no." Why deny them their fifteen sales a year? (sarc)
3) Social Mores - I'd like to echo the person above who indirectly pointed out that a HUGE majority of RPGs, traditional and new, happily encourage admission into the narrative space of murder, theft, "rapine" (neigh-ubiquitous rape of conquered peoples of both sexes, usually WAY behind a veil in purportedly "historical" RPGs set around wartime), and subjugation/slavery... even genocide. A lot of violence, there; and in our (Western, European, mostly-Christian) culture, it's "approved" violence: violent play, so to speak (Cowboys and Injuns, anyone?). But toss in violent rape, unusual genital configurations, and uncommonly extreme fluid emissions... and, well, it's NotGood-BadFun. I mean, consider the "horror and revulsion" of the average Middle American to GTA's rocking cars "sex" scenes with hookers--what I thought was an ingenious, immersive, plausible way to get a Health Buff--heh, pun intended--in the hyper-criminal GTA world. Or maybe it was the fact that you could beat her down afterwards and get your money back--oh, yeah, THAT never happens on the dark streets of the city, no way!
In short, the only "egregious" things about publishing such a product are (a) not protecting casual browsers from being subjected to imagery and concepts beyond their Lines and Veils, or (b) targeting impressionable people who have not reached majority. As a PUBLISHING issue, then, I think it comes down to careful cover design (front and back), possibly including shrinkwrapping, a seal of some kind (paper wrap), or restricted access to the display areas (private room, a la porn at video stores; or modestly covered and behind the counter, a la porn at convenience store). And far from being "censorship"--you don't have the right to shove a picture of your spread-legged wife into my face on the bus, right?--it's just common courtesy to the marketplace, potential customers, potential future customers, and those who'd happily make your life miserable if you so much as slightly shake them up!
In SHORT-short: it's in a publisher's best interests to treat an RPG porn game the same as if it were porn fiction or non-fiction.
David
guildofblades:
Hi David,
I agree that adult material should be treated as adult material. Meaning, properly labeled thusly, and kept away from easy access to minors. I'm not advocating inappropriate materials be designed and sold to minors. Where the "inappropriate" line is drawn there is a balancing act meant to be between the parents and the law makers. No publisher should dare to try and enter that mix.
But for adults. Adult material design for the consumption of adults...is just fine for those adults who care to do the consuming. Do the consumer of said games run the risk of be associated with said material? Yep. Does the publisher? Yep. That's just the market sorting itself out, which is also fine. No need to legislate it. Family and community values will take care of that, where "they" feel it obviously needs taking care of.
>>Market Acceptance - A potentially offensive (if not VERY offensive) niche specialty (hentai) of a niche product (RPGs as books) of a niche community (gamers) is already at enough of a competitive disadvantage that I would simply pity the poor writer/publisher who was told "no." Why deny them their fifteen sales a year? (sarc)<<
Well, G-spot doesn't do any RPGs presently, but I would assume the same theory might apply to board games and card games also. And you are sort of right, we ship very little of their stuff to the established RPG market. But geesh, it amazes me sometimes how much of it sells outside that market. And just thinking about THAT leads to all sorts of interesting thoughts about our market at present.
Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com
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