[IaWA] Breaking Bad Habits
jenskot:
Quote from: David Artman on April 30, 2008, 09:13:42 AM
Note that, for myself (and maybe your own sanity) it might be best if you did winner, proactive narration rather than loser, reactive narration. Some scenes sort of demand the latter (sneaking around, a chase scene); but for a straight-up fight, I'd prefer winner narration over trying to come up with some way to self-disadvantage after every losing roll. Plus, with loser narration, it's tempting to get into mealy mouth "disadvantages" like "I get the ring back, but slip and fall at your feet." --yeah, you get the MacGuffin, but it feels 'wrong' to me to be able to "lose" and yet gain the MacGuffin under dispute, if only for a round... but what's to say I don't keep it the whole exchange, and as such end "losing" in possession of he ring? Well, nothing--and that's how you get rolling battles. You'll have that ring if you have to lop off my hand--and head--to keep it....
I thought Vincent clarified in this thread that by the rules as written, the Answerer is the one who described how they dodge, reverse, or take the blow. And that when it comes down to who describes the outcome, that it doesn't matter who wins or loses the action roll.
Vincent, please check me on this. My understanding from all these threads is that as written, the rules indicate the following:
- Fight!
- Roll initiative.
- The person who wins initiative is the Challenger.
- The person who loses initiative is the Answerer.
- The Challenger describes an action, "I grab the ring from you."
- Roll actions.
- The dice results DO NOT resolve what happens, but instead resolves who has the advantage and eventually who takes damage.
- Either way, the Answerer is the one who describes what happens.
- If the Challenger loses, the Answerer could say, "I run away with the ring."
- If the Challenger wins, the Answerer could say, "I run away with the ring but you catch up to me and kick the crap out of me."
- Regardless of the dice results, the Answerer can decide who has the ring in any manner they like as long as they make sure to indicate who has the advantage.
- Let's say it's the final round.
- The Challenger wins and the Answerer responds with, "I run away with the ring but you catch up to me and kick the crap out of me."
- Now the Challenger and Answerer negotiate.
- Note, the Answerer has the ring because the last person to lose initiative gets to decide what happens, where everyone is, and who has what before final negotiation happens.
- The Challenger can make an offer or damage the Answerer.
- The Answerer can make a counter offer or take damage.
- In effect, who ever loses the initiative in the last round has final say over the situation's color unless they give that up to avoid taking damage.
- And who ever wins the conflict roll in the last round has potential leverage over negotiating elements of the situation's color and has the ability to damage the loser.
QUESTION: Based on the rules as written, is the above correct?
Rock,
John
David Artman:
Hmmm... I'm losing it, now. WTF did I mean, an hour ago?
So we got:
initiative-winner - keeps dice and, after defense below, becomes one of these:
* challenger-winner > gets Add Die but narrates nothing
* challenger-loser > gets nothing, says nothing (s/he's had his/r turn, at the challenge)
initiative-loser > defends and becomes one of these:
* answerer-winner > gets Add Die; and narrates self-advantage and, probably, self-gain
* answerer-loser > gets nothing (except maybe We Owe); and narrates challenger-loser advantage, possibly with self-gain
It seemed so simple until there was a damned ring involved. Act, react, get die (or not), keep going until you have the stick. I think it gets fucked up during the narration type that I bolded above... and, yeah, maybe that's what I was driving at earlier (and maybe I'm now swinging Mike's way): It strikes me as Wrong to lose a challenge, but answer in a manner which thwarts the challenger's intent, EVEN THOUGH there's nothing about the action sequence that considers or cares about intent.
Does it just come down to "I'm gonna beat on your ass until I can pry it from your dead hands, so give over"?
lumpley:
John: yes, correct. Absolutely correct.
...Lord, I'm such a nitpicker. This probably goes without saying, but let me add one caveat:
Quote from: jenskot on April 30, 2008, 09:46:20 AM
- Regardless of the dice results, the Answerer can decide who has the ring in any manner they like provided it's stylistically appropriate as long as they make sure to indicate who has the advantage.
...
Quote
- In effect, who ever loses the initiative in the last round has final say over the situation's color provided it's stylistically appropriate unless they give that up to avoid taking damage.
The rules don't give the answerer permission to fuck around with the group's established style. For instance, in examples, I'm prone to answers like "four days later, I..." In some groups that'll be fair play; in others, not. The rules don't give you license to violate your group's standards.
Sometimes, case by case, your group's stylistic standards will dictate who has the ring. Like, every once in a while, it'll be a violation of the group's style for the answerer to say "...and you have the ring." That's fine, it's not a contradiction of the general rule that it's the answerer's say.
But, John, yes. Correct.
-Vincent
(edited to fix quote tags)
jenskot:
Vincent, thanks for the reply.
Please nitpick as much as needed. My goal here is to 100% understand your intent. Whatever it takes works for me!
If I understand your caveat correctly, you are saying that the limits of what the answerer can and can not describe are situational and relative to your group's style of play. One group may be comfortable allowing the answerer to describe changes that affect time and space where another group would be more comfortable limiting the answerer's description to the here and now. Makes perfect sense to me!
I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding:
Quote from: lumpley on April 30, 2008, 10:22:26 AM
Sometimes, case by case, your group's stylistic standards will dictate who has the ring. Like, every once in a while, it'll be a violation of the group's style for the answerer to say "...and you have the ring." That's fine, it's not a contradiction of the general rule that it's the answerer's say.
Are you saying that depending on a group's play style, they can limit the Answerer's ability to dictate who has the ring?
If yes, I agree that this does not contradict the general rule that it's the Answerer's say. As they can still describe how they react to the Challengers action as long as it is strictly limited to the Answerer's character and doesn't affect any other fictional elements.
As a consequence, I suspect that if you make the Answerer's ability to dictate who has the ring optional, then the negotiation mechanics swing hugely in the favor of the challenger who won the final action round giving the losing Answerer very little to negotiate with.
Is that accurate?
And if yes, is that your intention?
(I just imaged you saying... there is no intent, just action and lunging at me with a stick... hahahahahaha)
Thanks,
John
Moreno R.:
Question: I get kicked around but I get to keep the ring. I know that my adversary will attack me again to get it. Can I narrate the end of the conflict like "I jump in the rapids and the water push me way", getting injured but getting far from my attacker, too?
It seems to me that heroes - and even villains - do this all the time in the literature, but this would make it even worse for Mike, because in this way the loser could get away with the ring without a second conflict
But, now, that I am thinking about it, the attacker could say "I will find you in a few hours", and than I would go "No, you fucking don''t", and we would have the follow-up conflict right there. This would be an acceptable conflict or it would be too vague, and a conflict should be about what the character do right there, not "during the following hours"?
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