[IaWA] Breaking Bad Habits
lumpley:
Quote from: jenskot on May 01, 2008, 07:25:26 AM
I would really like to play again now that we have these clarifications and come back with Actual Play to see how things change.
John, I'm really looking forward to hearing how this works out! I'm glad that, for all the frustration, and for my egregious misdiagnosis, this thread has been helpful to you.
Everybody:
I'm happy to answer questions about how to play. I'm happy to answer questions about why the game does what it does and is what it is - but that's answer questions, not argue, and especially not answer to disappointed expectations. I can't possibly take them on as my responsibility.
Jonathan, if you want me to talk with you about your doubts and suspicions, please ask me questions, okay?
Anybody else, Mike or anybody, if you have questions I haven't answered, please ask them too. I'm sure I missed many. A new thread would be the place.
-Vincent
Moreno R.:
When I wanted to learn to play DitV, I found lots and lots of actual play postings at the Forge that helped me. The same happened with many other games from that period. Some games I have never played but I already do know enough about them from reading actual play postings that I can at least understand what people mean when they talk about some mechanic or another.
The big, important part, was that these post talked about what people did, at the table, not only about the imaginary content. They talked about what happened at the table and what it did mean in the fiction, and the reverse.
Now, living in the other side of the world, and not having the chance of having the new game demoed for me at Gencon, I ofter find myself in the situation of having to choose the games to buy only from reading reviews, actual play postings, or the previews from the publisher's site. And It's becoming more and more difficult to find good (clear and concrete) actual play postings that talk about what people DO WHEN THEY PLAY at a game. The best actual play posters don't post them anymore (with some important exception - for example, the ones from Christopher Kubasik are usually golden, and he's not the only one left), the actual play post are few and a lot of new people only post the imaginary content, the "story", and it's not a lot useful.
This thread don't enrage me, even if it showed me that I made many mistakes playing IAWA the first two times. I would like to read a lot more threads like this, about a lot of games, talking about how they are played, in concrete terms. If Jonathan's and Vincent's group play in a very different way, it's very useful to read about how they play, both before choosing a game they describe, and after that, to understand how different people can play it.
"Bad Habits"? I have a lot of them. Many even about playing games. I really don't find any offense in stating this obvious thing. I want games that challenge them, and I want to learn to play in different way from the usual (for me).
P.S: Jonathan:
Quote
That is, unless there is some reason that players cannot pick their best dice to roll every single time (and the We Owe List isn't a big enough incentive), some players will always roll their best dice.
This happened in my last game until I trounced another character with the helping die from the Owe List used from the first roll (and getting another time my name on the owe list at the same time). Then everybody scrambled to get their name there, too. From what I have seen in play until now (that, I admit, it's not a lot of playing to base my observations) using the Owe list, even in a one-shot, it's the real, true "winning tactic". If you always use your best dice you will be trounced by someone that will counter your d12 with a d10+1d6, take the advantage, and go then to 1d10+1d6+1d6 (the most probable results is 12-13, against your single d12....)
P.S.: I wrote this before Vincent's reply, but reading it... I have still a unanswered question, seven posts before this. If somebody didn't already answer it and I didn't notice it...
Mike Holmes:
I probably should take John's approach, and just try it again playing correctly by the rules. I admit that, in theory, the problems we had might be due to not playing correctly.
But I suspect that the corrections to the improper uses of the rules that we had in play won't actually ameliorate the problem. The question, Vincent, is if I have the authority to deny you that thing which you are trying to get, which authority comes from a contest that I initiated expressly for preventing you from getting that thing, why would I let you have that thing?
Your argument seems to be that for some groups that they'd just do it. I'm thinking that it would be rare. More importantly, I'm thinking I'd never do it.
And if I'd never do it, doesn't that recast the entire system into a multi-contest system for obtaining anything? For me at least? If I do give for no good tactical reason, in order to feel that I've made an appropriately dramatic entry, I'm going to feel bad that I've had to give up some of my success in order to do that. Shouldn't I be rewarded instead?
Doesn't the rule that rewards me with getting on the owe list for doing something tactically unsound play this way? Why don't the other rules?
Now, of course, this is all speculative until I actually play with the actual rules. We at best can say for sure that our bad feelings came out of the set of rules we concocted on the spot. Maybe there's some effect of the proper rules in combination that may occur to make it all work out. But I'm skeptical.
Another unanswered question is that of narration scope for negotiated outcomes. What's viable to agree to having happened in the past tense? Anything? Or are negotiations really only always verbal promises made between the characters? What's the guidline there? Anyone who has the rules, could you answer? Again, I'm not sure what they say on this matter.
As for the question that Jonathan and Moreno raise about always using high dice, I think that's a valid question, too. Actually I'd phrase it: There seem to be two sorts of action a player can take, one intended to stop an opponent, and one intended to get on the owe list. The owe list actions actually do incentivize using low dice... but not neccessarily the lowest. This is a fascinating mechanic, brilliant, even. But there are times when I chose not to pursue that objective, and to instead am trying to get what I want, and in those cases, why would I chose lower than max dice? Especially if I know that if I don't go way low, I can't be the lowest?
Note that the discovery that the winner can, in some few cases, be the answerer is cool. This solves the problem in each of those cases, certainly. So at the very least that ameliorates the problem somewhat. And the "GM decides" method will, of course, fix the problem with dice selection. So I may well use that variant. Maybe. As long as players can attempt to make an action sound like it'll hit low dice, in order to get on the owe list, I think it would work for me.
Mike
Marshall Burns:
Why would anyone do something in a game that put them at a disadvantage, with no renumeration or consolation or whatever?
Because, sometimes, it's COOL.
What other reason do you need?
I haven't had a chance to look at IAWA, but I do that in all other games I've played.
jenskot:
Quote from: Mike Holmes on May 01, 2008, 12:11:38 PM
Note that the discovery that the winner can, in some few cases, be the answerer is cool. This solves the problem in each of those cases, certainly. So at the very least that ameliorates the problem somewhat. And the "GM decides" method will, of course, fix the problem with dice selection. So I may well use that variant. Maybe. As long as players can attempt to make an action sound like it'll hit low dice, in order to get on the owe list, I think it would work for me.
I'm still couch surfing and all my games are in storage so I may be remembering the rules wrong but provided I'm not, if I really wanted to game the system because I really badly wanted something, I would go in with low dice, get on the owe list, wait till the last round where hopefully I lose initiative, and before I roll as the Answerer, cross my name off the owe list, gain a bonus die and the roll increasing my chances to win as the Answerer. Master of color and the stick!!! Even though this is super gamey, I could easily imagine the narrative of this back and forth being quite cool.
Funny enough, IAWA feels like pro wrestling in real life! I depend on my opponent to sell my moves so I can get over with the crowd and look cool but if they as the Answerer make me look like a fool as the Challenger, then I can rough them up by dealing out stiff shots at them till they learn to play nice and sell for me. Hahahahahaha.
Quote from: Marshall Burns on May 01, 2008, 04:29:48 PM
Why would anyone do something in a game that put them at a disadvantage, with no renumeration or consolation or whatever?
Because, sometimes, it's COOL.
2 Dreamations ago Vincent and I played Dogs in the Vineyard. I played this pissed off kid who had daddy issues. My initiation conflict was, "Do I shoot my dad.......... for a second time?" I had a chip on my shoulder for having a dead beat drunk of a father.
Later, some crazy kid is running around causing all forms of un-heavenly chaos. I flip out and confront the kid's mom ready to beat her down in a conflict over me chastising her for raising such an awful boy. Vincent sees my raise with the mom saying, "I had to raise him all alone without a father." Holy crap! He hit my buttons perfectly with narration and even though I was kicking ass mechanically I had to give on the conflict. He schooled me with color!
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