"Solid" things and Sorcerer, or, how is a fighter-jet-AI-spaceship a demon?
Ron Edwards:
That's fair and clear.
The overall, social and creative issue that you mention is indeed important, or even, I suppose, the most important thing.
However, I do think there's a good way to discuss your concern with the AI jet-fighter space ship on its own terms - which is that, and here I think I am being faithful to the source material, the ship's volitional capability exceeds its designers' plan. The ship isn't merely "smart," like they wanted it to be and like the pilot expects. It's scary-smart. That's why I described it in terms of agenda instead of merely performance. It not only sees, knows, and processes stuff (as intended), it also judges and wants things, and is willing to subordinate the pilot if necessary to get them.
You wrote,
Quote
What would be the downside of players taking as a certainty the Hellish origin and fallen angelness of classical devils in the same way they take the physical structure, warp drive, plasma cannons, or whatever of the spaceship as a certainty? Those devils are still volitional creatures, just like the spaceship, the same basic question still applies; what will my character do for power.
I think this reveals the crux of my point: that the players may take the physical structure, et cetera, of the ship as a certainty (that's the hunk of metal) ... but that they cannot and should not take the intelligence of the ship as such a certainty. For them to say, "Oh, it's a programmed AI," as an explanation is exactly like saying, knowledgeably and smugly, "That's a type 12 Bubbzegorr demon from the fourth circle of Gehenna," or something like that. Such statements may carry useful content, they might be correct, and they're good enough to function as a Lore score ... but they really can never be stated as 100% certainty. A character may be rock-solid certain about it, in which case the Will descriptor Belief System is practically obligatory, but that's all it is.
So the ship's intelligence and volition and agenda are metaphysically exactly the same as the red-skinned demon's intelligence and volition and agenda. The hunk of metal that constitutes the ship is merely a detail - and in fact, potentially a very misleading one because it provides a very strong illusion of certainty regarding the ship's demonic qualities. Implicit in the term AI is, "it's only a machine." Sure ... like the sabre-tooth cat in Beyond the Black River was "only an animal." It wasn't only an animal. Conan had no chance against that thing, and he knew it.
For a machine to be an effective demon in terms of playing Sorcerer, it must partake of the terrifying, off-human but not-machine quality of HAL-9000. It can be reasoned with, sort of. It can be manipulated using specific arcane knowledge, especially for banishing purposes. But it can't be merely controlled as a human controls any ordinary tool of whatever complexity. Its existence should provide a prickly reaction, of "geez ... this thing is a lot more than what I thought it was."
I'm enjoying the conversation and I hope this post doesn't seem as if I'm simply repeating myself. Your post gave me a clear idea of just what you're asking, and my aim was to answer with equal focus. Let me know how I'm doing with that.
Best, Ron
P.S. A side point: the basic question for Sorcerer is not "what will my character do for power?", as often mis-stated. The question is rather, "you have power - can you handle it?"
Hans:
If I understand what you are saying correctly, then that post completely answers my questions.
To rephrase your words, to demonstrate my understanding...focusing on the intelligence and volition of the "demon", whatever form it might take, is the key. The base uncertainty should be about what demons want, and how they will behave, and what their ultimate goals are. In that sense, an AI spaceship is just as inscrutable as a 12 bubbzegorr devil, and rightly so. This is what makes them both appropriate as demons.
Other things may ALSO be uncertain (is that devil really an honest to god biblical fallen angel? Is the AI spaceship really and AI spaceship, or a hunk of metal inhabited by extradimensional Cthuluish intelligence?) and the more of this uncertainty there is, probably the better the game will play. But that base uncertainty must be present for Sorcerer to work.
Does that sum it up? If so, I agree completely, and thank you for your time in clarifying. If not, help! *grin*
Ron Edwards:
You have it perfectly, Hans. Many thanks for the careful reading and writing.
Best, Ron
lachek:
Very informative conversation, thanks!
Quick question while we're on the subject -
As demons want to hide their existence from the general public, would it be appropriate in the fighter-jet-AI-spaceship example to say that:
* the general public is perfectly aware of advanced fighter jet spaceships;
* they know the jets are piloted by specially trained pilots;
* and they may even know they are controlled by sophisticated AIs;
* but they do not know the full extent of the AI's volition, independent agenda, or relationship between AI and pilot?
That is, the public is aware of the metal, and the mechanistic intelligence behind it, but not the volition behind that intelligence?
GreatWolf:
Quote from: lachek on April 22, 2008, 09:43:48 AM
That is, the public is aware of the metal, and the mechanistic intelligence behind it, but not the volition behind that intelligence?
As I've been watching this thread, I keep thinking about the EVA units in Neon Genesis Evangelion. If you've ever seen this anime, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. If not, it's worth checking out. Just take a look at the relationships of the pilots to the EVA mechs that they pilot. I mean, there's even a Binding...er...synchronizing that the pilot does with the EVA....
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