Taboo to follow White Wolf?
Big J Money:
I'm not sure the analogy drawn between D&D and fantasy and Vampire and vampires is to the point. D&D's take on fantasy was very elementary (immature, but not necessarily in a negative way) -- barely researched; misinformed on many things. Vampire certainly isn't high literature, but I don't think it's a stretch for many people to be of the opinion that it's a well thought out fictional world. The accusation of being elementary doesn't stick, because its goal was to reinvent the vampire (and other horror) myths from the ground up. That's a compelling idea, and I think that idea in particular is what they have the "monopoly" on; not the vampire/horror genre in particular. (More like: Earth's horror through the conspiriatorial lens.)
So, if you're trying to build a game that is a fresh take on the vampire myth in our present day world (I suppose Medieval, too), I'd say you are "pulling a White Wolf". I'm not making a judgement call on that. If you have more compelling fiction and a better set of rules to play a game with, it could be a wonderful product (and that makes it A-Okay). I have never tried to do this for certain reasons.* If you were looking at gothic horror themes in more "alternate universe" situations, then I don't think that can fairly be compared to WW products. In that case, it seems like no issue.
Of course, you mentioned Scion. Your conclusion sounded to me like, "White Wolf has something of a monopoly on certain settings, would I be copying them by using similar settings?" Well, my point above is that the only thing White Wolf really put their mark on was their horror (Changeling possibly included) stuff. I don't think you can class Scion or Exalted with it. They are popular for other reasons. I think it's likely that Scion in particular is popular for brand name reasons more than anything else. You are making a general point out of something I see to be more specific. Does that many sense?
Hell, another question I'll ask is how different is your game idea from what WW has done? Do you think it's inspired by a WW game? Do you think it covers certain ground that WW's product can't cover? Is the only time you think about it when you are already thinking about a particular WW game, or is it something that has been in your mind for a long time? In the end, I think your concern about "copying WW" is something of an either/or. It might be that you have no reason to be concerned, or it might be that your idea would be something of a copycat product. The only thing you can do is work on it and see what people think. Thank God there's this place for support and discussion, right?
-- John M.
* --I have asked myself before if I want to try that. The answer I give myself so far is "no", because White Wolf's settings are so familiar for many people. If I want to play a game with other vampire enthusiasts, I don't expect them to not know about WW. I am an inexperienced enough GM to know that I have a lot to learn and there probably is a lot of longevity I can get out of WW products simply by learning how I can modify the systems how I need. I don't game with WW enthusiasts (yet), so I don't forsee problems with this.
Marshall Burns:
Monopoly schmonopoly. Bottom line is, you're not going to invent flour. You're not even going to invent pie. If you try, you're doomed, because it's already been invented. The designer's responsibility is to make a damned good apple pie, as it were. It doesn't matter if someone else is making apple pie. There's lots of ways to make apple pie, and plenty of reasons why someone might prefer one recipe over the other.
-Marshall
northerain:
I was thinking the same thing when I was working on my game about fallen angels, a while back.
''My game is about fallen angels and-''
''Oh so it's like Demon: The Fallen''
''Well no, they are actual angels that have fallen and they fight these demons-''
''Oh so it's like In Nomine''.
If there's one thing that I'm having trouble with is words/terms. Each game line has used almost every term relevant to the legends they used at the time.
Orpheus uses the following:
Haunter
Will o Wisp
Shades
Hue
Poltergeist
Horrors
Echoes
Stains
How the hell am I suppose to write a game about ghosts without using those words? :P
First Oni:
Yeah... northerain is a bit more on the mark of what i'm feeling. The feeling that if you're doing something even remotely like something else, it's immediately "like something else". And it's not something you can't get over, as I'm now well on way, but it does get annoying.
Also, if the terms are linked to legend, i say use them regardless. Good luck with your ghost or fallen agenl game idea, btw. definitely let us know about the flavor, texture, and recipe of your pie eventually (thank for the great analogy Marshall Burns).
Lance D. Allen:
I've had similar experiences. Have either of you tried to explain a game only to have it dismissed as a cheap knock off of another game? Not just compared, but dismissed as though you were somehow trying to reinvent the wheel, or worse were trying to claim credit for other people's ideas when the similarities were superficial at best?
I have. This is why I can't even hear about Orpheus without a snarl trying to curl my lip.
My long languishing game ReCoil has been compared to The Whispering Vault, Wraith the Oblivion and Orpheus. When the Whispering Vault comparison was made, I went out and bought the only .pdf I've ever bought so that I could see where the similarities lay. While in concept the games were very similar, the themes addressed and mechanics were very different so I went ahead. Wraith the Oblivion is one I resigned myself to from the beginning, because certain ideas were borrowed, as well as certain terminology (wraiths, Oblivion, etc.), from Wraith. What makes.. err, made me so angry about Orpheus is that I was having good conversation with this fellow, who seemed like a reasonable dude. Then I started talking about ReCoil, and he brings up Orpheus, which I'd never even heard of, and basically tells me that I'm trying to steal their ideas, and do it badly he's blunt enough to add.
I've since looked up Orpheus to a small extent, and it has vastly less similarity in concept to my game than Whispering Vault does. So I've gone ahead with my game, though I have begun looking for a few new terms, to attempt to get past the knee-jerk "Oh, it's like Wraith: the Oblivion, right?" reactions.. But in the end, you've just got to accept that there will be those who will make those comparisons, and among them, some who will never look past them. In those cases, sigh and move on. At worst, they'll never play your game. At best, they may drum up online publicity by ranting on rpg.net about how much of a hack you are.
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