[Tensided] Save the Party From Their Own Bad Choices?
Vulpinoid:
Rev. Ravenscrye/Greyorm,
Yeah, your right that my expanded comments seem to conflict with the one-liner I used to open my rant. I can see how they can be viewed in different ways, and that's my fault for not clarifying. I've had plenty of thoughts regarding these issues and my typing tends to be pretty "stream-of-consciousness"...
In my experience, there always seems to be someone who isn't happy with the way a game finishes (indeed, if there's only one then your doing well).
Before I visited the Forge, I hadn't seriously thought of things like social contracts and shared imagination space. I'd had these ideas festering about in the back of my mind but didn't have a structured understanding. It was more instinctive. I guess that's like a lot of players. They have expectations; these are not formal requirements from a game that are codified in the rules, but simply ways that they believe games "should be run".
Again, just my opinion from my experience, but it's when these instinctive expectations differ that friction occurs on a gaming table.
It may be politically incorrect to say that a good method of conflict resolution is singling out a trouble-maker and identifying them for what they are. But would you rather have that individual poison the experience for the rest of the table? I've seen plenty of good groups collapse because one person wanted to have their say and had the force of personality to inflict their desires on the rest of the table (or the rest of the LARP), contrary to the desires of those people who were trying to promote story, collaboration and a communal experience.
I'm sorry to say that I'd be one of the first to question a player's motivations if it looked like they were disrupting things for the group. Especially if other players were becoming less motivated in the story, or were starting to feel frustrated or losing the enjoyment from the session. If the player was able to show that their character was contributing in a positive way to the flow of play, then I'd discuss it with the other players openly.
If the player wasn't able to give a good reason for their character's actions, I'd also be one of the first to ban them from my game after a second warning. That seems to be where our opinions will always differ...and by the way, I don't consider "But that's just the way my character is!!" as a decent reason for causing trouble in game.
I guess I'm just passionate about it from another angle.
I try to run games that cater to the desires of the larger group, if my group generally wants combat and only one or two players want intrigue, then I'll offer a bit of meaty intrigue on the side for them, but the game will predominantly relate around combat and strategic play. If the group are wanting to delve into mysteries and conspiracy, then I'll try to make sure everything has double meanings and rarely is something what it first appears to be...different players need different styles of play.
Never did I say "Don't bring it up with the player", nor did I say "Single out a player"...in fact I said...
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If a player is digging their own grave in one of my games, I'll drop hints to the other players...
...followed by...
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If other players aren't taking the hint, I'll just measure the depth of the grave to ALL the players.
If you want to take my words out of context and put your own spin on them, then we'll never help Arthurtuxedo...we'll just end up spinning around in a whirlpool of rhetoric.
Another thing to consider is that I've often found the problem players at the table coincide with the players who are unable to separate reality from game. They role-play for a sense of escapism, but they can often get caught up in the fantasy of that escapism to a dangerous degree. This isn't always the case and it may seem like a gross generalisation to you, but that's what I've been seeing time and again.
Due to this I've found it can be very effective to address a character's actions through in character means. One of the best ways to address a character's actions in this way is through roleplaying opportunities using other characters. This can also be used as a valuable tool to develop the personae of the character's involved and it may help to get at the heart of the matter through play.
A player who's had some bad issues in their life may take it out in play as an aggressive character who just wants to destroy stuff. It's a more socially acceptable method of catharsis than actually going out with a sledgehammer and vandalising property. If that player is willing to talk out their inner turmoil through their character then it might help the healing process.
I'm not advocating that all gaming should be turned into group therapy sessions, but if there is an underlying issue then having the other players act role-play through it can be helpful.
This is another one of those social contract issues. If one player wants to use the game as a venting session to the expense over everyone else's fun, then their participation needs to be questioned. If that player wants to use it as a venting session and the other players know what's going on in the background and don't mind helping her through it, then it can be a very rich and rewarding experience.
There's no generalisations that can do every situation justice, so I'll leave it at that for the moment...
I'm glad that this discussion has been started. If a GM were to simply say that their game sucked because one player ruined it for everyone, then I'd say that the GM was not accepting responsibility for their part in the collapse.
If a GM were to say, "Most players enjoyed it, but something didn't quite work. Please help...", that shows more of a sense of maturity in my opinion. It's something that we can discuss and work toward a solution on.
I'm sure this will be discussed further.
V
greyorm:
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I'm sorry to say that I'd be one of the first to question a player's motivations if it looked like they were disrupting things for the group...If the player wasn't able to give a good reason for their character's actions, I'd also be one of the first to ban them from my game after a second warning. That seems to be where our opinions will always differ...and by the way, I don't consider "But that's just the way my character is!!" as a decent reason for causing trouble in game.
Clearly we are talking past one another here as the situation/behavior-response I am discussing has nothing to do with the situations/behaviors you are discussing above, with allowing disruptive players to continue being disruptive, or with player excuses for disruptive behavior. Nor do our opinions differ as you seem to think they do. As such, I don't know how to continue this discussion productively, but thank you for trying to clarify.
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