[Sorcerer] Cascadiapunk: New Wrinkles and Old Habits
Ron Edwards:
Hi Joel,
You’re talking yourself into a tangle, unfortunately. Looking over the thread, I realize that I haven’t fully described how I’d GM that situation with the tussle by the car. I’ll do that first.
Your justification regarding “obstacles” needs to be thrown out; it’s gumming you up. This is about conflicts of interest. The car is not a character, so it will only be involved as a minor modifier to make things harder for the chasees, or as Jana correctly utilized it, as a possible source of bonuses. The only opponents are the doctor and the orderly.
Instead of lining up a list of obstacles to be overcome, you should work with exactly what the characters are doing going into the roll. The orderly, for instance cannot be blocking both V and Pigeon. That is exactly why you can’t use the obstacle-list, because he can’t be opposing both of them at once without some kind of special equipment or something like that.
In the opening stages of that conflict, V and Pigeon are separately trying to escape, and they’re rolling against whoever was trying to get them or hem them in. Apparently the orderly is concentrating on Pigeon. Jana says V does this whole tuck-and-roll thing, then faces the doctor. All right, the rules are right there in hand to use for this: a Stamina roll, then if successful, the victories become bonus dice for the vs.-Doctor roll. That’s the roll that can get her free, and let’s say, as in play, she did – she escaped.
The various features of the situation have all been honored: car, orderly, doctor. I’m hammering this hard because it’s a big deal. There is a way to handle conflicts that lies halfway between a single opposed roll and a full-on complex, orthogonal mess. I’m trying to outline exactly how it’s done. It’s still composed of basic rolls, but with augmenting rolls and a strong sense of positions of characters relative to one another.
That conflict is over, but the scene is not, because V now has a choice: she can either enjoy her new freedom or she can get back into the situation to help Pigeon. She does (worth a Humanity gain roll, I’d say)! That’s a new goal, new thing, new conflict, new roll. Now, it’s all about rescuing Pigeon.
Well, that has a lot of possible orthogonality involved. The orderly will choices to make about whom to grab or thump. The doctor might try to jump in, if he can. Depending on the various stated actions, it’s pretty likely that you’ll move to complex resolution.
However … it’s also possible that you won’t. When would that be? If V’s stated action was to help Pigeon escape, Pigeon’s action is to escape, the doctor’s is to prevent Pigeon from escaping, and the orderly’s action is to prevent Pigeon from escaping.
Do you see why that is? If the announcements line up like that, then you simply have outcome A and outcome B again, in a zero-sum one-gets-it situation. If that’s the case, then go back to baseline opposed rolls: probably V vs. the orderly, with a roll by Pigeon feeding into hers, and the doctor’s feeding into the orderly’s. (I assigned V to be the primary roller on one side, because Pigeon lost to the orderly already.)
I’m not saying that the announcements had to line up like that; for all I know, V was the real prize rather than Pigeon, so the orderly and the doctor might have concentrated on her. In that case, we shift into orthogonal resolution.
Does that help, or make sense?
Best, Ron
Reithan:
Just wanted to but in here and say, this thread is AWESOME. There's a lot of good insight and tool here for anyone who's reading.
On the other hand, what in the word does "orthagonal" mean? o.o
Ron Edwards:
Actually I felt bad about my last post. I wrote it once for content, went over it for concept-checking and organization, and then was about to go over it again for tone when I was interrupted. So it's about ten times harsher, more in my speaking voice which can be alleviated by body language, than I wanted.
You're kidding about orthogonal, right? I don't really get emoticons, so I'm not sure.
Best, Ron
Reithan:
I haven't played Sorcerer specifically, so if it's something explained/defined in that rulebook, then that'd be why I don't know.
But, other that that, no, I have no clue what orthagonal means.
Ron Edwards:
Hi there,
No problem.
The term "orthogonal" is from geometry. It means "at right angles," and in the context of narrative, means actions that are happening at the same time but are directed toward different things, and yet still might affect one another. For instance if Bob is trying to grab the widget which is falling (and might blow up), and if Sam is trying to shoot Bob, then all sorts of things might and might not happen.
Bob might get the widget and then get shot by Sam
Sam might shoot Bob, and that might or might not spoil Bob's chance to get the widget
Bob might get the widget and avoid being shot
Bob might avoid being shot and then get the widget
... and so on. The alternative is "oppositional," which I think I described pretty well above - either one side is trying to do X and the other is trying to avoid or stop X, or both sides are trying to get X and only one will.
RPG techniques have traditionally handled this badly, relying on logic with no uncertainty (most "initiative" mechanics) or on pure judgment on one person's part who simply mandates what goes when. One of the very few exceptions was Zero, published in 1994, from which I was inspired for Sorcerer's timing/order mechanics. Most of the games which arose from the Forge community since 2000 have done a pretty good job of addressing the issue, in one way or another.
The terms got their first workout in Orthogonal & oppositional conflicts, courtesy of Jesse Burneko. The issue had been discussed at some length in other contexts (especially in [Frostfolk] Carrying on), starting about halfway down the first page), but he was the one who really broke it out into meaningful categories. Ever since then, I have no idea how any of us ever accomplished worthwhile RPG design without them.
Best, Ron
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