Ways to sell more narrativist or indie-like games to traditional players?
Jargon:
Thanks for the advice Dindenver. No post is ever too late whatever internet's eating habits may be. It ate one of my posts last night too.
I think that you have a point there with this social aspect. It might be that I failed in some way to ease my players into Nobilis because I was so excited about running it. It might have created a bit of a defensive attitude in my players and biased them against this system. One of them was very sceptic about Nobilis and I had a lot of discussions about the problems and tried to explain everything as best as I could, but I don't think he really listened me. Then again I asked everyone if they really wanted to play this game after I had explained most of it and they said that they wanted to try.
Running Nobilis was a huge risk anyway and I knew that it might fail as it did, but I was also very disappointed to the lack of efforts from the players side. When they didn't react into anything that I presented to them and part of the time I felt that I was doing monologue, I really knew that something was fundamentally wrong. I can only assume that Nobilis somehow scared them too much and it made them passive. Well, better luck with some other group.
And about HQ's magic system. That's the root of the problem to me these days, my players are refusing to think the game in the terms it should most of the time. Use of magic has always to be helped by me even though I try my best to indicate that they can experiment and be creative about the use of keywords. It just does not happen, and it's really frustrating. Maybe the best thing I can do is to try to go to basics and have some clear challenges in the next session that can be solved by creative use of keywords. They just have to learn to think by themselves because in this game the keywords wont do it for you.
greyorm:
Quote from: Jargon on August 15, 2008, 07:50:44 AM
Use of magic has always to be helped by me even though I try my best to indicate that they can experiment and be creative about the use of keywords. It just does not happen, and it's really frustrating. Maybe the best thing I can do is to try to go to basics and have some clear challenges in the next session that can be solved by creative use of keywords. They just have to learn to think by themselves because in this game the keywords wont do it for you.
Sometimes we create our own worst players, and we become frustrated trying to train them out of habits we are or have been unconsciously reinforcing throughout the rest of our gaming. I may be mistaken, but your players sound like they are "turtling": afraid to take steps off the beaten path or engage their own creativity without GM guidance because in the past that behavior has resulted in their character being assaulted, hosed, or demeaned in some manner or their creativity being shot down or even "corrected" (even if such correction was well-meant). Perhaps you didn't even do this, maybe that's just the way they learned to play and thus those are the unspoken rules as they unconsciously understand them.
I don't know that HeroQuest is going to be the best game to retrain them, though, because you can play it without needing to get all Narrativist or individually creative, especially if you are holding their hands when they refuse to do anything like that. If you want to encourage them to take a more active role in creation, I would suggest playing a game for a while that requires more structured individual input into the shared play space, something with required/overt Director stance, where play simply can not move forward without player participation and player participation and creativity is the central mechanic.
Hrm. Maybe something like Universalis, which wouldn't allow them to fall back on Actor-stance based turtle-habits. Or It Was A Mutual Decision, if you have a good mix of men and women in your group. Though perhaps others can suggest better(?) choices that would not allow that avenue of escape.
(You might even change terms on them to see if that helps -- if you play a "story-telling" game instead of a "role-playing" game, they might not start playing with the old paradigms and understandings fired up and ready to go inside their head, instead thinking this is a different type of game with a new set of unwritten rules to learn. But then you need to make sure it actually is a different type of game, and you're not doing the same old stuff you would do in any regular RPG, or it is just going to cause problems.)
dindenver:
Jargon,
Well, there is that judgment again. And now I hear you are badgering them for not being creative enough? Maybe I am reading too much into this, but something tells me you know if I am right or wrong. If I am right, read on:
This is definitely a sign that you are not looking at the situation through their eyes.
I feel that the best way to showcase this is to do it yourself, lead by example. Start using Traits on NPCs creatively. In order to rise to the challenge, they will have to do the same.
Maybe you are doing this already in your head, start saying it out loud and/or calling attention to it.
Also, if these guys have been playing HQ for a while, ask one of them to GM and then you can really go hog wild and show them something cool, no?
Well, it sounds like you have already made up your mind to switch groups. But, if you don't stop judging people and showing rather than saying what you want to see at the table, you might just take your old problems with you...
PS
I know that you can't not judge things in your own RP experience. I mean, you know when you are having fun or not, right? But it might help to phrase suggestions for better play to be about specific actions rather than people or their general behavior at the table.
Bad example:
"You guys need to be more creative when you use the Traits on your character sheet"
Good example
"Dave, if you had used your Profession as a Soldier instead of your Skill with a Dagger, you probably would have won that last encounter"
Does that make sense, does it help?
Jargon:
Thank you for the advice Greyorm and Dindenver. And no, I'm not that terrible as a GM even I might sound like it in my posts, it's just my frustration speaking. Anyway, the advice is good and I'll try to get them into good use. There is some sort of turtlnig effect at work in my group and I don't know where it comes from. I'll try to make my NPC actions more visible as part of the rules, not just story. It might really help my players to figure things out.
And make no mistake, I'm not stopping HQ campaign and continue to play with old group, I meant that for Nobilis I have to find other people, the game is completely lost for this group. Maybe I'll try to ask them if they'd like to try some of those games that you people suggested. It might be just the ticket for my GM happiness. :)
The Dragon Master:
Having tried the same thing myself recently, I figured I'd toss in my 2 coppers.
The situation: The group I'm in has been going for roughly 15 years. I've joined in the last three, just as two of the "problem players" left the group. When I started with the group I really enjoyed myself because this is what I'd been wanting to do for so long, and hadn't been able to find anywhere else. Naturally (for me) I started scouring the internet for RPG forums so that I could learn what was available and player/gm techniques. Seeing many techniques I felt my group would benefit from (and I still think they would) I tried to introduce the group to it. I bought numerous gaming books (Donjon, Sorcerer, Universalis, Burning Wheel, etc.) and asked players to read them, suggested campaigns in them, tried to explain the mechanics, all for nothing. Example: One week our GM/Host wasn't available so I invited them to my place for a one-shot of Burning Wheel, and actually had one player refuse on the grounds that he didn't like the system (for reference, the system codified into the rules his style of play)*. The problem is that they are so enamoured of their own playstyle, that they aren't willing to try anything else (at least the groups core isn't). And this is the problem I ran into.
I would recommend one of the following two things, after you decide on a system.
1) Have the players read through the core book, and let you know if they are interested in trying it out. Invite those who respond possitively to it to (insert neutral location here) to play a session or two of it. I would highly recomend avoiding locations in which you normally play, if only to force a disconnect between Those games and This game.
2)Find a group in your area who already play similar games (I used this site). Contact them, and either play a few sessions with them to see if the group dynamic fits what you're looking for, or join by offering to run a one or two-shot of the system in question.
I tried option 2.1 (New group, testing the dynamic first) and I'll be running Sorcerer in two Fridays. Don't know how it will go, but it took me 2 years and change to talk anyone in my old group into trying a new system, and it took me 2 months (or so) to get a chance to run Sorcerer with my new group. Don't misunderstand, I still intend to run a campaign in one of the systems I bought for my old group, and still game with them weekly, but joining with this new group has been the best experience I've had in gaming yet.
*I know I'm not wording this well, but the gist of it is that his playstyle is built into the rules as the default playstyle of Burning Wheel. While reading the books, every new bit of the mechanics described reminded me of some aspect of how he'd played the previous session, and every session I see behaviours of his and his PC that would do exactly what he intended if we were playing Burning Wheel. I'm convinced that the problem is my own inability to describe it properly, but by now he is "tainted". He has decided that he doesn't like the system, and nothing I do will convince him otherwise (also known as the let-it-ride mechanic ;). Though I don't mention this specific instance other than to give background on where I come from.
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