[Sorcerer] Contacting/Summoning Object Demons
The Dragon Master:
Let's start with what I understand after reading your post. I do get (though I didn't while writing the example) that if Bulc'nath can be seen, and said to exist, that he has already been contacted and summoned. I also get that I was, as you suspected, creating a definition for sorcery (and probably demons as well) and trying to use that to understand the mechanics as a whole, which would have tripped me up when I attempted to apply them to another definition for sorcery. I had it in my head that I was just creating an example, a metaphor, rather than a definition of "how sorcery works". So for now I'll set aside examples (on my end) till it clicks for me.
...
You know what, I was going to add to this post my "newly acquired understanding" of contacting and summoning, but I think I'll skip that for now. As I try to put them into words I find that it's a little like trying to catch air. It's right there in front of me, but no matter how I go at it, I can't quite get my fingers around it.
Ron Edwards:
Excellent! I know my post was really didactic and forceful, and I appreciate you working with me on it.
Regarding the last bit, h'mm, I think it's easier than you're making it.
The beginning of every demon's story is that the demon (whether gun, monster, smiling not-quite-normal person, or whatever) isn't here. It doesn't exist.
My character, Darrell, Contacts it. Then he Summons it. Now it exists, and is subject to Binding, Containing, Punishing, and Banishing. If it's Bound, it exists "even more," and can be killed dead, rather than merely Banished when physically destroyed.
On the other hand, if Darrell finds it (meaning the demon, not just a gun) in the gun shop, then it already exists, having been Summoned by someone else long ago. He now decides whether he wants to Bind, Contain, Punish, or Banish it, or whatever he wants, kiss it, hit with a hammer, whatever.
Either one is a perfectly good back-story for a beginning Sorcerer character, by the way. The character may have Summoned the thing, or he may have encountered it, it's up to the player.
Best, Ron
The Dragon Master:
That works for backstory, but the biggest part I'm wrestling with (I think) is how it works out in play. In the systems I'm used to the imagery, and the meaning of it, are straight forward, and you just roll dice. Light some incense and play Abba while chanting and the succeses rolled tell you the level of air elemental you've summoned type of thing. I think if I can wrap my head around the "meaning" of each step I might be able to get the imagery in my mind, and gain a better insight into it (sort of a yak-shaving approach, I know).
So let's try.
Contacting: This one is hardest for me to "get", but here's what I'm thinking now. It isn't communicating wth the demon, it's expanding the Sorcerers mind beyond normal experience, to accept the possibility of a specific impossible-thing existing. Though this acceptence doesn't make the thing any less impossible.
Am I there so far?
Visual: He is meditating or whatever his equivilant is, and sees this demon, or at least what it represents, in his minds eye. Does that sound close?
Summoning: This one is a bit easier, though the imagery with an object demon (and I suppose other "physical" demons as well) eludes me. Summoning is the sorcerer bringing this impossible thing into existence by sheer force of will.
Perhaps the Demons Power that Will is being rolled against represents the Universes rejection of it. Or is that last line slipping into setting detail again?
Visual: We experience the summoning ritual (whatever it may be in that setting) and then the gun (to use the Belc'nath demon as an example, setting asside the examples I used him in earlier) simply is there with him. Setting aside imagery that would be setting specific, or rely on the definition of sorcery, the physical demon doesn't exist until it does, but doesn't Appear either (as that suggests it appears from somewhere).
Perhaps an outside observer (without Lore) would, after the ritual, believe the gun was there all along... Or am I confusing myself again? Is defining the Outsiders view of the Summoning stepping into setting detail? Or even something that shouldn't be worried about except to see what happens in a given scene to create the best drama/comedy/whatever-your-going-for?
I'll stop there for now till I get some confirmation. And feel free to stop me at a specific line if I seem to be getting it up to that point. I'm fairly good at compartmentalizing information in that fashion... though if you think that method would confuse others who find this thread then I'll understand that too.
Ron Edwards:
You have it! With a couple of provisos that are not rules-consequential:
1. The Contact can have visual or other effects beyond the sorcerer's mind. Perhaps a swirly hole appears in the air, perhaps a voice booms out apparently from nowhere, whatever. But you're basically right; it's a one-on-one thing between this sorcerer and the Thing which does not exist.
2. The appearance of the demon prior to and during Summoning is entirely up in the air. In some applications, demons appear in one form only, from initial Contact onwards. In others, the un-Summoned form might be amorphous or abstract, then coalesce into its Type and individual features upon being Summoned. This is one of those customized look-and-feel things for a given group and given game.
Best, Ron
The Dragon Master:
Okay, then let's move on.
Binding: Let's see if I have this one straight. It still seems to me that this one is based on proving to the demon that you can meet it's need. Is that accurate? If so, then I think my binding example works, with some minor alterations.
Visual: Setting aside the color of Sorcery in the setting, Darrel summons Bulc'nath. To keep some of the original imagery, perhaps he does summon him in the store. Bulc'nath wasn't there before this act, but it is now. He attempts to rob the store with Bulc'nath, but since he hasn't bound Bulc'nath yet, he can't command it. Having tried to hold up the store, and finding that Bulc'nath is "empty" he uses it as a club, pistol-whips the clerk (thus meeting Bulc'naths Need), and leaves "gun" in hand.
Naturally this isn't the only possible visual, but would that work? Or does the binding have to be a more... I almost want to say intimate, but don't see how to get more intimate than that with an entity of violence (comment specific to Bulc'nath and others with it's Need). How close am I here?
Banishing: I'll try to simplify here, to get down to the basics. The initial binding strength is used here, because it represents the "anchor" of the Demon to Existence. If the Demon has the advantage, then it gets the dice, it controls its anchor. If the Sorcerer has the advantage, the he gets the dice, he controls the anchor (or maybe is the anchor). Am I good so far?
Will faces off against Power because that is the battle being enacted, "Can the Sorcerer through exercise of Will alone, overcome the Power of the Demon, to bend it to his will?" being the question this roll answers (perhaps that question is answered every time the sorcerer makes such an attempt, every binding, every banishing, every command). Am I still on the trail?
Visual: (Insert Sorcerous mumbo-jumbo-color here). Depending on in-game color, perhaps the ritual involves him yelling at Bulc'nath, perhaps it is a simple confrontation like in "The Labirynth", perhaps the "gun" disappears afterwords, or perhaps it is still there as a gun minus it's power and tell-tales. but all of that is color and I think I'm getting closer to a grasp here of what each ritual means in terms of in-game cause/effect.
Punishment: (Reads the second paragraph I typed for Banishment). Hmm, this seems the same, only with a different end-goal. Instead of removing the Demon from existence, the Sorcerer is trying to make it more pliable to his Will. Good so far?
Visual: Again, this is mostly in-game color, but the key is that it is an attempt to apply penalty dice to the Demons actions, which can both help, and hinder the Sorcerer.
How am I doing to this point?
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