Sounding Board for Hardback/Softcover dilemma
iago:
Quote from: guildofblades on August 27, 2008, 08:42:43 AM
If your book has no color interior pages, then why would it cost $75 on Lulu? It shouldn't.
He's absolutely right. A 400 page 8.5x11 book at Lulu costs (rounded to whole dollars):
B&W Interior Softcover = $13
Color Interior Softcover = $65
B&W Interior Casewrap Hardcover(closest fit, 8.25"x10.75") = $25
Color Interior Casewrap Hardcover = $77
So if you're thinking it's $75, it's because you're looking at the color interior pricing.
MatrixGamer:
Wow! It's been a loooong time since I've posted here but here goes...
When the bigger company/distributors told you the number 100-250 copies they weren't lying. Their assumption is based on what a person can sell themselves. I firmly believe that anyone can sell 100 copies of any book just working their social network for a few years. This would mean selling to your friends, going to local cons and game days and running games there, having a web page, talking about your game and actual play sessions on web forums etc. All stuff that is fun. I sold out of my first game "Campaign in a Day" the first Engle Matrix Game product in 1995 (after three years) It was 100 copies and they were three saddle stapled books. I think the hard and soft back question is less important in this kind of direct selling because you are selling your enthusiasm and dream. Honestly this is the fun part of the hobby. Some games really click with people and develop a movement - Dogs of the Vinyard comes to mind - but you can't bank on that though.
As to the technical question of perfect binding and 400 page books. Think of a phone book. They hold together very well so it isn't impossible to do. That being said 100 unit print runs are not done on the same machines. The big boys have million dollar machines, some POD printers are using the cheap Easy Bind machine. If a low end machine is being used then the pages will fall out. If you don't mind doing a little work you can stop that from happening with a drill, linen thread and a long needle. After you get your books, take one out and (using a small drill bit) drill holes through the body of the book next to the spine. Space the holes an inch apart. Then use the needle and thread to sew thread bindings in through the holes. The Ancient Romans did this, it works, and the threads don't detract from the books appearence. The Japanese do a similar type of binding but add in a strip of bamboo on either side of the spine so the threads don't cut into the paper.
There are lots of simple home done things you can do if you are making small numbers. When it comes to profit though you want to keep things real simple and watch costs. Curbing enthusiasm is no fun but helps prevent over spending. I know this well. I use to make 20 of each title I took to Gen Con. This year I made 5 of my new titles of boxed boardgames and 2 or 3 of the old ones. That way I've not tied up my materials in dead stock. One thing I've not adequately figured out how to do at home is make a glossy covered color paperback. I can make nice smyth sewn hardbacks but glossy color requires a better laminator than I have or using varnishes. I'm liking what I'm reading about shellac (if disolved in denatured ethyl alcohol it is pretty low in toxicity) but that is getting way off topic.
Good luck with your game!
Chris Engle
hoefer:
Loving the responses guys,
I must have read the color price on Lulu, I hope no one associated took any offense to my misquote. Now are the prices you guys have posted for making a Print Run, or a single purchased printing of the book by someone who comes to their site? I used to understand how they worked but I haven't kept up on it (at the time I investigated their company I thought I was looking for a POD that could press me 500 copies of a full-color hardback -Oh the sweat ignorance of youth...)
There was a question about "seeing" my game (which allows me a quick chance at a merciless plug -right Ron?) -You can go to WWW.Centurysedge.com (though this is a new site and you might have to approach it from WWW.Wholesumentertainment.com and scroll down to the CE link) there you can download a Quick Play PDF for free. It gives a good feel for the rules, but unfortunately doesn't do the setting a whole lot of justice (the quick play scanareo is "a little" like our average game).
I think the topic is moving from hardback vs. soft cover to Big Book vs. printing alternatives. (Do I have any responsibilities to start a new thread?)
I think it's been hard for me to shift paradigms because along my voyage I've thought that "All this in a single book, ready to play, one low price" would be a big selling point (I game with a lot of cheap *ss gamers). And so, all along I wanted to believe it was about the game and about making a meager profit (in the long hall mind you) but it looks like I'm an "ego publisher" after all. Infatuated with the idea of this game as a big hard bound book. I just got to shake that I suppose or expect to fail. I also just can't wrap my mind around the idea that people will buy "parted out books" (take no offense please) with the expansion stuff on the web. Or, as I've stated before, even PDFs in general -I have a hard time putting my faith behind. I guess the circle of gamers I've always kept with have equated internet publishing as "free stuff from the fandom" as opposed to books printed in the "expected" hard bound 81/2 x 11. Before this game I wrote (IMO) a really nice original rule book for the old Transformers cartoon series (mostly Generation 1) and after not being able to get a rsponse from Hasbro (which was expected), I put the thing out on the web as a free PDF download (fanboy strikes again...). I think the best its ever done (I don't even manage it anymore so as not to endanger my real game company) was 5 downloads a month -and its free! What should expectations be like for a PDF Rule Book? You'll have to give me some idea of your fan base to for it all to be comparable. I would say that 100-200 have played my game and that I have about 10 people that really are supportive with it/constantly checking in with my site.
Hearing from Eero that a traditional RPG can sell in "unexpected" formats is encouraging though. I will say this much, I'm still stuck in the mud on this one (for many years I've been talking about this book to play testers, foolishly saying how it would be so many pages, and have such and such in it -I feel weird stepping down from that, but the feeling will hopefully pass), still the next RPG product I have in mind is going to be formated for the Indy sales models we've been discussing. Of course it's a less "traditional" game, so maybe that's why its so easy to see myself marketing it in "alternate" formats...
Chris,
I am very excited to hear from you. I demoed "Deadman on Campus" a while back and found it to be great experience -outside of the realm of other RPGs, but something entirely of its own -its the sort of game that could be played at a party of mixed company (gamers and non-gamers :-). Kudos to you and your creative mind. I'm also am glad to get reassurance that selling a 100 compies wouldn't be out of the question. All about selling your enthusiasm, eh? I got plenty of that. Now I just got to find the right forums to get on, and figure out how not to be obnoxious with the whole thing once I'm there.
Thanks.
Louis Hoefer
iago:
Quote from: hoefer on August 27, 2008, 12:55:29 PM
Now are the prices you guys have posted for making a Print Run, or a single purchased printing of the book by someone who comes to their site? I used to understand how they worked but I haven't kept up on it (at the time I investigated their company I thought I was looking for a POD that could press me 500 copies of a full-color hardback -Oh the sweat ignorance of youth...)
You shouldn't be asking us this stuff. You should be plugging numbers into this:
http://www.lulu.com/en/includes/calc_book_inc.php
And reading up on Lulu's extensive, excellent FAQs. :)
The numbers I gave were for single unit printings. Bulk discounts kick in at 26 books (softcover) or 11 books (hardcover), if I recall correctly, and for softcovers at least scale up the larger print run you order.
MatrixGamer:
Have a thick skin on the forums. When I started posting on RPG.net I was quickly "educate" by barbed responces when I crossed a line. It stings but heck - not that bad.
I think you'll have best results when you run face to face games at store game days, at local clubs, and whatever cons you attend. Are there any fanzines anymore? (Or is that what this is?) It's all a lesson in life. For a number of years my life lessons were all about bookkeeping. Now
I'm on to the fun of marketing and sales... (My cons are not like they used to be...)
Chris Engle
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