[PtA] How are the narrative authorities working in this scene?
Arturo G.:
I have been talking yesterday with the other players. Not all was so bad at it may look. I posted about the scene that was worrying me most. But it was not like that all the time.
I perfectly understand the problem we created during the pitch. We were fixing the objective of the episode in terms of something that should happen; Alfredo joining the team. We were even discussing about how: "by chance".
But look at this because it is even more complicated. The other players have reminded me that I was complaining about exactly that, fixing the fiction before play. It seems that because of that we agreed that it was only an idea, but we were open to the possibility that this was not happening at all. We even agreed that if at the end Alfredo was not joining, I was going to create another character for the next chapter; and for me it was perfectly right. I forgot completely about that. A little weird, isn't it? Probably, we were fixing the plot but we were still being in denial that we have done it saying that we were open to other options. Because I think we were really trying to lead to it during play. At least me. It was my character.
Anyway, I think other details were not so fixed. For example, I don't think that getting the picture was set in stone at all. The producer introduced it as the mission objective when framing. But I think none of us were really assuming that we going to automatically succeed and there was no threat. Team failing to retrieve it, or getting trapped with it in the past were possibilities that some of us were having on their minds at given times. I would say we convey to the very basic cliché around the infamous key scene. Or am I deluding myself again? At least I don't have the same feeling as with the previous issue.
About the key scene I can perfectly see how the conflicts were completely lame and perverted to be an excuse to follow the plot. This is the reason I posted about it. Your advise here is very helpful to understand why and how we did it.
Previous scenes, especially focused on issues, were not working like that. I think we were shifting during the session to more and more rail-roading behavior. Shifting from setting Agenda, as specified in the rules, to setting plot, events and even outcomes. At least in the last scenes we were not asking for conflicts like those in the key scene. We were simply narrating in the direction that our rail-raoding was pointing.
By the way, it seems that I pasted together two different scenes. The moment that Alfredo was appearing is the start of another scene that it seems it was proposed by me. In my mind it was a single one.
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I think by "somehow" you're referring to the fact that the exact events are left open to play, aside from the all-important point that they have to deliver the result "by chance." Was this decided by the group in open discussion?
Exactly. Perhaps there was someone proposing one detail or the other. But everything was discussed and agreed at some point. No one is sure who said what.
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Characters bicker about who's in charge. (Out of curiosity, when Ruth and Luis drew cards, did they compare totals to one another or to the total of the Producer?)
They compared to the producer, We know you always compare to him. But at this time they were not really opposed goals. In the way they stated them, they were compatible. Anyway, I need to have a look at the PtA forum because we still have problems to resolve opposing goals (when both players succeed or fail). I'm sure the I will find answers there.
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The mechanics and authority-rules of PTA are predicated on Plot authority lying solely with the outcomes of conflicts
Does it mean that players should not introduce plot twists during free-form play if nobody ask for a conflict? Sometimes I doubt about the structure of a scene in PtA being really restricted to the stated Agenda or not.
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As with all Illusionist play, the idea that someone, anyone, actually has authority over plot has to remain unspoken. In your case, this was achieved by constant discussions to arrive at consensus. This occurred before play, before scenes, and within scenes. It is a symptom not of a particular sort of authority, but of the unwillingness to acknowledge the need for any authority.
I never really questioned myself if it was even possible that a whole group was doing this by negotiation. Typically I was the master, the one doing it, and it was much simpler to understand :-) Perhaps it was always more complicated than that. The conclusion is hard. I will be observing our play with augmenting-glasses, but I know (by experience) that it can be not so easy to te detect this things when you are involved.
Arturo G.:
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I also thought it might help the thread, eventually, for you to post about a scene in some other PTA experience, so we can show how the authorities operate in that case.
Sure. I think that it would be difficult to bring back my mind to my last PtA episodes two years ago. Instead I'm going to give you another scene... from the next episode of this series. We played it yesterday. We have been commenting about your replies and I think this time we were not so much plagued by the previous problems. I hope this time we were playing PtA and we may comment on the narrative authorities properly. If not, I'm really interested on knowing it.
It will take me some time to write it. But it is coming.
Ron Edwards:
Hi Arturo,
I'll look forward to the description of the new session.
I wrote,
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The mechanics and authority-rules of PTA are predicated on Plot authority lying solely with the outcomes of conflicts
And you asked,
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Does it mean that players should not introduce plot twists during free-form play if nobody ask for a conflict? Sometimes I doubt about the structure of a scene in PtA being really restricted to the stated Agenda or not.
It depends what you call a plot twist. Most of the time, that term does not mean a significant change to the plot (story moving forward), but rather a significant change to the audience's understanding of the back-story. At other times, it simply means a strong opening to a new scene. In PTA play, neither of those require a conflict to occur; they are simply input from the Producer in his or her role as the source of adversity. When I talk about Plot Authority, I'm talking about the way the story moves forward, based on the events within scenes.
Best, Ron
Christoph Boeckle:
Hi Arturo and Ron
For what it's worth, I use Revelation Authority (well, Autorité de Révélation) when I talk about Plot Authority in French, since it's all about revealing (or asking for someone to reveal) the plot to the audience. This seems to get across better in my little personal experience, whereas Plot Authority gets people excited about stuff which is a mix of Content and Situation Authorities. Sounds a bit biblical, eh?
Could that work, Ron?
(I also like the new term "Outcome Authority" which you introduced not so long ago, Ron. Narration Authority confuses the hell out of people around me.)
I'm looking forward to read more about this topic too, it has given me new insights about my play and how some other people think they perceive my play.
Arturo G.:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on September 04, 2008, 08:40:57 AM
It depends what you call a plot twist. Most of the time, that term does not mean a significant change to the plot (story moving forward), but rather a significant change to the audience's understanding of the back-story. At other times, it simply means a strong opening to a new scene. In PTA play, neither of those require a conflict to occur; they are simply input from the Producer in his or her role as the source of adversity. When I talk about Plot Authority, I'm talking about the way the story moves forward, based on the events within scenes.
You say "input from the Producer". But I was thinking specifically on input from another player. Something that one player introduces on the fly, that really changes the back-story or the audience's understanding of it.
May a player narrate how her character discovers something that changes the back-story? Does it mean an immediate conflict? Or does any player have that right unless someone says it is a conflict?
Quote from: Christoph Boeckle on September 04, 2008, 09:23:37 AM
For what it's worth, I use Revelation Authority (well, Autorité de Révélation) when I talk about Plot Authority in French, since it's all about revealing (or asking for someone to reveal) the plot to the audience. This seems to get across better in my little personal experience, whereas Plot Authority gets people excited about stuff which is a mix of Content and Situation Authorities. Sounds a bit biblical, eh?
Could that work, Ron?
(I also like the new term "Outcome Authority" which you introduced not so long ago, Ron. Narration Authority confuses the hell out of people around me.)
I have also found the same problems trying to explain Plot Authority. People mixing Content and Situation. I think that was also my first (confused) impression of it.
I really like the term "Outcome Authority" for Narration Authority. It is more equivalent to what I wanted to use in the translation to Spanish that I did for some fellows. I also think it is clearer. When/where did Ron introduced it?
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