[NWOD][VtR] New Game - New Possibilities - New Questions!
Reithan:
I'm back from my long absence from the Forge (miss me?). I'd not had much chances to post much here, due to job shuffling, and storm evacuations and other 'outside the screen' nonsense. But, I've ended my long-standing Mage: the Awakening game (mentioned in a few other threads from earlier this year and last year) and my players have requested I run another game!
On the plus side, I guess I'm doing something right enough to be asked for en encore. :)
On the other hand, the new game promises to be another, new challenge, and as much as I love a good challenge, I figured popping by the good ole Forge to get some advice and bounce some ideas off 'the masters' would be a good thing.
The Players
If you remember any of my posts about my Mage game, it ran for a good long time (about 2 years) with a couple hiatuses, a couple character changes, some issues, but overall, a good deal of fun.
By the end though, the game'd gotten a bit long in the tooth, and the paticipants (myself included) just weren't 'feeling it' anymore. So, we decided to take it out back and put it out of it's misery with a quick non-system, all RP, wrap-up with the only 2 players left involved.
Immediately, though, the 2 remaining players were blasting me with ideas for "the next game I HAD to run." As I enjoy playing these games, and also enjoy GM'ing, I didn't see this as necessary a bad idea and agreed.
I contacted the player who'd dropped out previously. This was the player mentioned in a previous thread who'd lost a duel against another player. His 'new character' never actually managed to make it into game, through weeks and weeks of re-writes of the character, various excuses and just generally blowing us off. His eventual answer at that time was a mish-mash of a few points, though I'm not sure any of them were totally true:
He didn't like the system (or any system, mentioned since) and prefers to ONLY play ADnD or game that are analogous to itHe didn't like how the game ran, prefering game which play more like ADnDHe didn't get along with another player in the group (though she left, and he didn't return, eitherHe didn't have time, due to RL concerns.and probably a few others I'm forgetting. In any case, he was no longer part of the gaming group. Contacting him again, he a couple of the same concerns, stating that he didn't know if he'd have time, and that the system "wasn't his thing". Cool with me. I don't have some compulsive need to include everyone I know if my games. :P
One of the two remaining players is bringing in (maybe) his fiance` who he recently moved in with into the game (maybe). She's expressed some interest in the game's setting and premise. My wife, also has expressed the same interest, as they're both fans of the genre, so she'll probably be playing as well, though I've had hot/cold issues with my wife's gaming habits in the past. She tends to start off strong, lose interest in her character, complain a lot and eventually (usually within 2-3 game sessions) decide to either quit, or abandon her character, usually placing the blame for the situation on someone else. (though never the same person).
The other 2 player's that'd be involved in the previous game also won't be playing, having quit the previous game due to RL concerns. The first, my brother, basically disappeared from my social radar around the end of his senior year, after having some success with his band, and continues to ellude me now that he's in college. The other, a mutual friend of ours, joined the Marine corps and, after graduating boot camp, he played off and on for a while, but lately his schedule's been so rough we haven't even heard from him in a couple months.
The New Game
The new game suggested by the players was a toss-up between 2 other games in the "New World of Darkness" line, by White Wolf: Changeling: the Lost and Vampire: the Requiem. The tie-breaker ended up being that my wife and Brandon's fiance` were big fans of the vampire genre and wanted to play if we ran that. So, we decided on that.
The setting for the game was also a 2-choice decision. Brandon'd been lately playing Assassin's Creed and thought a game set during the Crusades would be awesome fun. This was versus the game's default setting of 'modern', which wasn't discussed much. I brought up that I didn't have a huge background of knowledge about the Crusades period and wanted some help doing a bit of research and organizing if I was to be expected to run a Chronicle based on the time period. This was agreed on, and further we chose to have the game set in Acre spanning 1185-1187, the period leading up to the fall of Jerusalem to Saladin at the end of 1187.
The Characters
Brandon and Charles, the other of the 2 players remaining from the previous game, immediately set out about helping with the research and putting together ideas for their characters. The research cycled back and forth from being worked on, to taking a back seat to their own creative processes. Not a big deal to me, as long as everything gets done in a timely fashion.
Charles, in the previous game, over the span of 2 characters, had chosen to play female characters as a matter of style, because that's, as he put it, "just how (he) roleplay(s)." He didn't make a farce of it and was a very good contributor to the game, so no one had any real issues with it. However, my wife put forth some concerns over it, stating that she didn't care for people playing characters of the opposite sex, as it "never comes out quite right." I discussed it with Charles and it turned out to be a deal-breaker for him, as he felt he shouldn't have to change his gaming habits for someone else. My wife conceded the point, though, so everything's fine there, for now.
Charles' current character idea is to play a character from the Circle of the Crone with a bit of status in that order and a fair amount of political savvy, with just enough combat ability to get things done physically if needs be.
Brandon's character is going to be a bodyguard/vassal to Charles' priestess character and a ex-soldier or knight. His character is going to be a completely combat oriented Kaihbit(sp?) vampire, also of the same order.
Stephanie, my wife, and Jenn, Brandon's fiance`, haven't voiced any character ideas yet.
The Game
The game I'm planning is going to be an operatic style game, a melodrama, if you prefer that term. I'm planning on having a huge interplay between all the factions and big historical figures, with some of my own NPCs thrown in the flesh out the vampire fiction portions and to provide the more immediate and local portions of the drama.
The exact details of the dramatic plot and NPCs, I haven't figured out yet, as I'm trying to get all the historical pieces in place first, which I'm getting a decent amount of help from Brandon and Charles with.
I plan on having this game, unlike the last, have a 'planned' storyline and a predetermined end-point, as the players expressed some frustration last time with the previous game being TOO open-ended and dragging on too long, getting much too wooly and convoluted by the end.
That being said, I am still NOT planning on having this turn into any sort of railroad, and want to leave the plot as completely mutable by the player characters. The end, though fixed in terms of time and determined in terms of a general framing, I, also, want to be very influenced by what the characters have done in the game up to that point and the actual outcome of the ending to be influence by the actions, both up to that point as during that point. The ending will probably be something concerning the final siege and battle of the fall of Jerusalem, or possibly even turn into an alternate-history version where the players' actions have averted that fall.
This has been discussed, in general terms, with the current players and everyone seems on-board with this, so far.
Discussion Points
I don't have a lot of background running games where the plot has endpoints laid out, as my previously run games (there've been only about a dozen, actually) have mostly been run as a sort of cause-and-effect reactive string based on whatever the characters do after the initial setup and lead-in. So, any tips here would be very helpful.
Also, I'm wondering if anyone could give me some explaination of, or tips on constructing a 'relationship map', as I've seen this term kicked around a lot, but not every gotten a good feel for using it. How do you really construct one of these, what information should be included and are there any good tools or techniques for writing/drawing the map and keeping it updated?
Lastly, I'd been going through a bunch of RPG stuff, both here and on other forums & sites, and I ran across the term "kicker" in conjunction with the game Sorcerer. It was explained as a "bang provided by the character's background" or something like that. Something to be used by the GM when setting up the initial story and something could be evolved or gone back to multiple time to keep driving things along, while still keeping some story control in the players' hands. I thought that was a very intriguing tool/idea and was looking for more information on this. Or is this something unique to Sorcerer that I'll need to buy the book for more information on?
Also, just any insights into the game, the players or myself here that anyone has, or thinks they have, at this point, are more than welcomed. Thanks in advance for any replies, and in closing, it's good to be back at The Forge. :)
edited by me to fix formatting - RE
Reithan:
Sorry for the strikethrough. I was annotating an 's' in the quote as proper, but I forgot that an 's' in brackets was the beginning of a strikethrough. :(
I hope it doesn't make the post too hard to read.
Ron Edwards:
Fixed it! Welcome back!
Best, Ron
Ron Edwards:
Hi Reithan,
I’ll start with some things that are exciting for me to read about, then move into my questions.
First, I’m fascinated and excited about the setting, and the two extant characters seem like a hell of a lot of fun.
However, I’m puzzled about the people playing and how you assembled the group. I understand that there’s Brian and Charles, plus Jenn who is the fiancee of one of them, and your wife Stephanie, and you.
What I don’t get is why you don’t just run the game with Brian and Charles alone, especially since they’re the ones all jazzed about the setting.
To take the most obvious if not currently-problematic example, why’d you even call that ex-group guy? He sounds like a disaster. You say you have no compulsion to keep people in the loop, but if that’s the case, then that little interaction need never have happened, and your mention of the other two players seems like a non sequitur.
More close to home, and uh, not really to cause any problems, but it’s not clear to me why you’re including your wife. I mean, she’s already started to carp in exactly the way you anticipated. “I also invited this person who always sticks her fork in my eye.” Um, why?
Your prep is both impressive and slightly intimidating. You are going hog wild with the source material, and that can be a good thing or a not-good thing. As a fan of the insanely colorful and rich setting Glorantha, and the owner of many notebooks full of tiny serial-killer-size scribble about Gloranthan details as we played Hero Wars, and also as the guy who tried to give himself an informal M.S. in Cold War espionage for similar purposes, I wouldn’t be honest to say you’re necessarily going down a bad road. But it’s a road with many pitfalls, and sometimes it’s good to take only a few details from the source material and investigate how they, and they only, interact, rather than piling in anything and everything. In fact, that’s how I managed to GM Glorantha pretty well, was by taking one little place on the map and doing everything I could with what was there, rather than hurling in everything else just because I liked it, or just because it had been published.
So, since you’re dealing with insanely complex history and nigh-equally insanely complex game-book source material, it seems like trying to draw anything you can find into things might not be the way to go.
Quote
I plan on having this game, unlike the last, have a 'planned' storyline and a predetermined end-point,
…
That being said, I am still NOT planning on having this turn into any sort of railroad, and want to leave the plot as completely mutable by the player characters.
Oy, veh! “I plan to serve a vegetarian meal with a specific and perfectly timed dessert course … but oh yeah, everyone can eat whatever they want.” Isn’t the basic contradiction apparent?
Quote
I don't have a lot of background running games where the plot has endpoints laid out, as my previously run games (there've been only about a dozen, actually) have mostly been run as a sort of cause-and-effect reactive string based on whatever the characters do after the initial setup and lead-in. So, any tips here would be very helpful.
I did this a lot, back in my Champions days. I prepped in five-session sets (keeping in mind that our content/events per session were very, very high, especially for Champions), and usually I had a pretty good idea of who they’d be confronting in the fifth part, where, and under what basic circumstances.
It worked, in the sense of producing continuity, almost 100% of the time. But in terms of creating a story on the spot that was actually driven by protagonist decisions in response to adversity … well, my hit-rate was more like 30-35%. And fuck, man, we did try with every imaginable will to succeed, and we tried so hard for years, and years. But that’s the best we got.
So as far as tips and advice are concerned, I recommend loosening up the planning. Perhaps instead of planning endings and story-arcs, you might do better to look at the amorphous play you’ve done in the past and consider how to “screw down” the existing tensions and possible adversity that get generated as you go. That’s how climactic confrontations and shattering outcomes can arise through play itself.
Now for the technical questions.
Kickers and Relationship maps are both terms from Sorcerer, or rather, the first term is from the core rules and the second is from one of the Sorcerer supplements.
Kickers, well, there’s a lot to talk about there. A Kicker is a brief description of what has happened to your character, just prior to or right at the start of play, which cannot be ignored. One of the key points is that it is written by the player and then turned over to the GM for use in prep; the GM can add range or depth to it but cannot change it. Another key point is that a Kicker can be resolved; it’s not just a never-ending plot hook to drag your character into things. Typically a Kicker offers a range of possible reactions, rather than a single road to follow. And finally, it’s singular, so again, unlike the plot hook concept, a Kicker happens once and the ensuing events irrevocably change your character, by definition.
Threads of interest:
Really old: Using Kickers and Bangs, The hell is a Kicker?, and Prescribing the Kicker (this one omits the key point that the Kicker is written by the player, by definition)
Relatively new: Prep for first-time Hellblazer-ish Sorcerer (concerns Kickers as an integrated part of prep)
Relationship maps may not be the tool you’re looking for. They are not, for instance, running records of how all the characters “relate” to one another in terms of feelings or organizational memberships. They’re a lot more basic: more like family trees, linking characters primarily through ties of kinship and sex. The GM uses them as a kind of tuning fork among NPCs in order to think about how they might respond to disturbances in the current situation, such as the kinds of disturbances Sorcerer characters are practically guaranteed to make because they have Kickers.
Here’s a useful thread: School me on relationship maps. Also, for reference, here’s what one looks like.
Best, Ron
Reithan:
I'm going through all these links, trying to read everything provided, here. It's all great stuff. I'll have a response up sometime tonight. But, just to let you know, the link to the relationship map example at the bottom is a broken (404) link.
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