[Solar] But what about the Space Battles?
Simon JB:
So, I'm setting up a space campaign with a feel of Firefly and Stargate Atlantis with the stiff-upper-lip officer class from early nineteenth century naval culture. And I really want to use Solar System for it, since at the moment that's my first choice because of the way it focuses on personal themes and character growth.
But I need space battles, as well.
Now, you veterans, what do you think I should do? I guess the basic, Solar, way would be to let the conflict stand between the captains of the ships, using the ships as equipment. But I can't help feeling that that would be a bit unsatisfactory considering the genre. The question is if Solar System would be the wrong tool for this.
I guess basically what I would like is to have ships work as characters, using support rolls from their crews and captains. But I'm afraid that would require a lot of new crunch, with ship-specific abilities, secrets and pools - perhaps even keys!
I'm just not sure whether that's a bad idea and that I should just go with Fate instead, or if it would rather be a very, very cool idea.
Any helpful thoughts out there?
- Simon
oliof:
Ships shouldn't have keys, unless they have AIs that are played as other player characters are. Which might be a nice idea anyway.
You may want to look at StarStruck for one specific implementation of tsoy-based space combat.
Here is another idea:
Ships are characters. They have three Pools: Hull, Drives, Sensors. The passive abilities are: Stability (H), Evasion (D), Tactical (S). There are six active abilities: [
], Maneuver (D), Speed (D), Jamming (S), [
].
Ships can only use their abilities if they are chained with the Command (V) [Hull-based], Piloting (I) [Drives], or Science (R) [Sensor] abilities.
Secret of the Autopilot: The Ship has an autopilot computer. It can use Drives based skills without a human operator, but it does get an automatic penalty die.
Secret of the Tactical Console: The Ship has basic tactical programming. It can use Sensor based abilities without a human operator, but it does get an automatic penalty die.
Secret of of Honeycomb Structure: The Ship's structure is especially sturdy, allowing it to use Hull-based abilities without a human operator, but it does get an automatic penalty die.
Secret of the AI Operator: The Ship has an AI that governs it's basic functionality. If it has any of the three aforementioned Secrets, it does not get automatic penalty dice from operating without a crew.
And so on
Eero Tuovinen:
Interestingly enough, Full Light, Full Steam seems to be about this exact thing. I haven't familiarized myself thoroughly enough yet to recommend the rules system (there are bits I like, but I also loathe the point-based chargen, as I tend to do in all games), but the setting is amusing, and there certainly are rules for ship-to-ship battles.
That being said, let's see what Solar System can do! I don't watch much scifi television, but I know my military scifi (the literary genre). You tell me where we go wrong...
Enlisted ranks in Eero's space navy
Secret of Enlistment
The character is an enlisted man out of basic training, ready to serve on a space ship. He is bound by military discipline during his tour of duty. The enlisted man is able to donate Pool when following orders of his superiors, as detailed below. Requirements: Good basic physique and no obvious signs of mutations or other typical player character freakshow stuff.
Secret of Petty Officer
The character has been promoted into a non-commissioned officer. He has enlisted men under his authority. The petty officer may draw one Pool point from each enlisted man under his orders when they help him on a task; such Pool points have to be spent immediately. Secondary characters ordered around in this way start to grumble, however, unless the petty officer succeeds in a Leadership (I) check now and then with a degree of success equal to the amount of Pool he draws at once. Grumbling enlisted personnel are considered to have temporarily lost their enlistment. Requirements: Secret of Enlistment
Secret of Warrant Officer
Warrant officers are the highest ranking petty officers. They order around other petty officer and enlisted men. The warrant officer may draw Pool "through" other petty officers he orders around, and may also draw one Pool directly from each petty officer; he needs to only make Leadership checks for the petty officers and enlisted men he draws from directly, while the petty officers take care of their own men. The warrant officer may also give the Pool he draws to those higher up in the command chain. Requirements: Secret of Petty Officer
Secret of Spaceman, First Class (specialty)
The character is actually good at his job, and thus may make Ability checks for his specialty when following orders in fulfilling it. The check result is then transferred as Pool to the command chain. Cost: 1 Pool appropriate to the Ability. Requirements: Secret of Enlistment
Secret of Grumbling
The character is a troublemaker. When he is grumbling (players decide themselves when their character becomes fractitious), the character may create and uphold an Effect of "Resentment towards superiors (I)" for free with a Resist (R) check. The Effect can be used or gifted to others normally. Requirements: Secret of Enlistment
Secret of Exhortation
The character is a nightmare NCO, able to make men give their all. When ordering an enlisted man around, the petty officer may check Leadership (R) to draw the result in Pool points from the enlisted man instead of just one point. Emptying a Pool in this manner breaks the man, however, causing Harm equal to any the difference the target is unable to pay. Extras always pay in full and break down afterwards. The target may opt to Resist (R), which reduces the Pool drain directly. Requirements: Secret of Petty Officer
Officers in Eero's space navy
Secret of Commission
The character is a commissioned officer, and thus has access to the difficult array of military scifi abilities necessary to run a spaceship. Astronavigation (R), Piloting (I), Weaponry (R), Sensors (I), Tactics (I) and Logistics (R) are examples of Abilities officers specialize in.
Secret of Subordinate Officer
The character is not yet a commissioned officer, but he's studying to become one. Success requires a Quest, at which point this Secret is exhanged for Secret of Commission. Appropriate Quest conflicts include courage under fire, wise decisions in tense situations and whatever the commanding officer might think up. Of course, if the character is in officer school instead of an operating ship, the situation is a bit different. While subordinate, the character can learn commissioned Abilities and be assigned into officer-like roles on the ship, but will suffer a penalty die to anything he does as an officer substitute.
(Quests are this thing I have in Finnish TSoY. Short explanation is that you track successes through three separate conflicts where the quest is at stake - three successful conflicts ends the quest. The counterstakes of individual conflicts do not necessarily include outright failure for the quest, but then, it's also possible to end up in situations where the stakes do not progress the quest but loss might still cause it to fail. Lots of options there.)
Secret of Command
Officers in the command chain have some leadership abilities. The character may draw Pool with Leadership (I) like a warrant officer, and he may draw from any enlisted personnel under his command. Requirements: Secret of Commission
Secret of the Bridge (commander)
The character has a working relationship with the Captain of the ship (or other character in the command chain), which means that he may receive Pool from the officer in question when executing his duty. The commanding officer determines how much he gives, if any. This usually requires being in the same room, and is mostly useful for the bridge crew, who can't waste time ordering enlisted crew around anyway. Requirements: Secret of Commission or Secret of Enlistment
Ships in Eero's space navy
Ships consist of modular parts activated with Pool points channeled by officers and NCOs. The ships and their modular parts themselves are Effects, like so:
Fighter Plane - 1/R - scale 1
Piloting (I) - 1 Instinct - moving around and shooting things.
Which is to say, the character with this light, individually manned craft needs to pay 1 Instinct per scene merely to keep the plane in operation and his Piloting access available. That access is key, as the character can't use the fighter plane in conflicts without the plane allowing him to use his ability through it. With the plane, though, he can transform his piloting into moving around and shooting things. Simple.
The access costs of ships need to be paid again in each new scene and after each Ability check made via the ship. Extended conflicts are very expensive, as you need to pay the access costs again and again each time you decide to use a particular ship or module.
As the smart reader probably realizes by now, it probably won't be you who pays those Pool costs - it's the poor enlisted men on your ship, aided by the NCOs. The absolutely vital basic requirement of a functioning space ship, therefore, is the chain of command: you need to have the enlisted men toiling away, lugging ammunition, polishing bulkheads and in general keeping the ship in operation, just to generate (or, rather, reallocate) those Pool points. You need a bunch of petty officers to collect the Pool, and warrant or command chain officers to distribute the points to where they are needed.
Where are they needed? This depends totally on the composition of the player character set, as we're always focusing on them. Just as you would normally, you give most attention to the player characters, second-most to important NPCs and almost none at all to others. What this means in practice is that PC officers will probably have one or more space ship modules listed as Effects: the officer who has a given module listed will need to pay the activation costs for that module, so that's where those Pool points will need to go.
In reality you won't be simulating the whole ship, really. You'll just simulate as much as you need to, and assume that the rest of it runs slightly-below-average, thanks to the efforts of the NPC crew. Just play this part in the same way you'd play it in earthbound adventure: the SG decides how any conflicts between secondary characters go, while the player characters have the spotlight. However, in this case, you'll also need to gloss over some pretty complex interactions that happen when characters run a ship of, say, 300 people, most of which are enlisted men used to fuel the ship. That's when you strike out stuff like this:
Secret of Sloop
The character commands a space sloop, with 20 crew plus officers. He has an average and (at this point) undetailed command chain that provides him with the check in Pool points with successful Leadership (I) check, usable for operating the sloop. Sloops are small enough to be usually commanded directly by the captain, who is aided in keeping the morale of the men up by some sort of second-in-command, usually a warrant officer. Requirements: Secret of Command
Making ships for Eero's space navy
A new ship or module of the same is created by creating an Effect (with some sort of financial Ability if you're buying the ship, command-chain manipulation if you're trying to get it out of your superior officers, etc.) and then listing what sort of Ability accesses it allows. The rules for actually building spaceships would be interesting, but a bit like rules for crafting magic items, they're a outside the scope of this current review. Rather, just assume that all ships come forth by SG fiat.
The ship module is an Effect, which is created normally.All ships and ship components have scale, which acts a bit like equipment rules: when two scaled opponents meet in opposed conflict, the difference in scale modifies the active party's Ability check result (either up or down, depending on which way the scale goes). The modified result may not go below 1 or above 6, like with equipment. Everything that is not a space ship or module of the same is scale 0, but note that scale only affects conflicts where the full brunt of force of the larger opponent can be brought to bear.The scale of the ship's hull determines the maximum scale of any other components, except when you sacrifice something else to make unlikely combinations. The scale can't start higher than the value of the Effect, although the Effect may, of course, come down later.Activating an access of a component costs the scale in Pool points, of a denomination that depends on what the crew is doing - Vigor for lugging stuff around, Instinct for doing pretrained routines, Reason for repairing things.Each access allows the ship to do some discrete function, whatever makes sense for the tech paradigm.If the module has several different accesses, their costs may be distributed unequally between each other - so it's easier to use the short-range lasers than the long range photon torpedoes from the Weapons Console, or something like that. The gap between costs may not be more than the Effect value, however - if the Effect value goes down, the costs of access get redistributed by the SG.The module can't have more accesses than it's current Effect value - if the Effect value goes down, some of the accesses go off-line.
A couple of examples of hardware:
Light Sloop - 3/R - scale 2
A maneuverable ship that suits well for medium-range scouting and planet-based adventuring. Usually no hyperdrive.
Piloting (I) - 1 - Moving around and other basic use.
Piloting (I) - 2 - Fighting with the ship's inbuilt weapons.
Logistics (R) - 3 - Supplying a landfall.
Astronavigation console 4/R - scale 1
A small, almost portable specialized computer for figuring out where you are.
Astronavigation (R) - 0 - Figuring out the closest stars, finding predefined landmarks, short range travel.
Astronavigation (R) - 1 - Mapping unknown space.
Astronavigation (R) - 1 - Figuring out where we are in known space.
Astronavigation (R) - 2 - Adapting the console for other computer stuff.
And, how you get those might be something like this:
Secret of Perch
The character has a successful career in Eero's space navy, so he gets some hardware he's responsible for. Make a suitable Ability check at the start of the mission to determine the quality of the Effect - the type depends on the skills and position of the character on the ship, while the scale depends on the scale of the ship. (The scale of the ship depends on what the mission is, although career officers usually stay on the same ship until assigned to a new one.) Requirements: Secret of Commission
Secret of Rank
The character has rank in Eero's space navy, which basicly means that he's guaranteed a perch on a ship of a certain scale. Each time you get this Secret, your rank goes up by one, and so does the scale of the ship you're serving on, unless something exceptional happens. Officers of a lower rank need to do what the higher rank says, except when they're in different branches of the command chain, in which case each step of distance (= how many rank steps you need to go up from the higher-up to find their first common superior) deducts one rank difference. Requirements: Secret of Commission
Typical events for Eero's space navy
Destroying hardware: ships and their individual components are Effects, and are thus destroyed like Effects. Most of the time the SG should allow characters to take the Harm, though, as a kind of symbolic concession to cinematic logic. If somebody wants to take it himself when his ship is shot, who am I to argue, after all? Or, make up some more crunch to handle that part.
Removing access: the obvious move when making a space ship is to drop the cost of access for an individual access method really low by hiking up the cost of other accesses it might have. This works just fine until the opponent somehow temporarily jams the given access, causes a number of penalty dice with descriptive tactics ("we stay out of range of their lasers" or whatever) or does other stuff like that. Furthermore, why care about the access cost? If you've planned your command chain correctly, you'll have more than enough Pool from the crew (in the short run, at least) to pay for access - you can't take those points with you, so to say, so you might as well spend them for what they're intended for.
Loaning out hardware: characters can, and should, loan out and help out each other with their hardware. Whether a character can support another in accessing some specific piece depends on the fictional constraints and stuff - likewise, individual accesses can support each other sometimes, while sometimes they can't. For example, if the ship is a highly computerized piece that runs all weapons stuff to the weaponeer's console (and maybe the captain's), then another character with tactical training might not be able to help simply because they ship's programming not been designed for dual access. Likewise, the guy who's piloting the ship and the guy who is shooting the guns might or might not be able to support each other in the conflict against the other ship's crew, depending on how they describe their actions.
Afterword
It's pretty obvious that this is not complete, and not even balanced. But that's what you get for improvising, and I won't touch this further without confirmation that we're on the right track. Or wrong track, for that matter. Now I'll need to go get some dinner...
Simon JB:
Wow, this feels like a candy store. Do I go for chocolate or ice cream... ,-)
Eero, your idea is brilliant but a bit complex for my needs in this case. It feels perfect for a group with several characters spread through the ship, but right now we're setting up for a solo campaign (which of course I haven't told you yet) where the focus on pool economy feels slightly off track. Like you said, I think it's a good representation of military SF in literature where it's possible to go behind the scenes into the cogs and wheels of the machinery. Here our needs are more cinematic.
Now that I've been thinking about it a bit more I think the ships-as-characters way i the right one for this campaign. It would be like a troupe style play (something we were by the way already considering for this) where the player can switch between playing the human character commanding the ship and playing the ship with the commander as a supporting character. Yup, that feels just right for this scenario.
Comes the questions about crunch for ships.
Let's go with Harald's pools, Hull, Drives and Sensors, for the time being, but let's make Sensors be Systems to include computers and stuff.
The defensive abilities are good in principle, but could use some hotter names. Hmm, I'll have to think about that...
Harald's secrets are good too. In practice we're going to have a lot of SGCs in all functions but Command, so I guess we'll name the most important bridge officers and give them their skill levels.
By the way, about character abilities we're going with using proffessions rather than skills as far as we can: Naval Commander (R), Engineer (R), Pilot (I), Mechanic (V), Marine (V), Infantry (V) and so on.
I'm not sure how to do with scale. I guess it's best if difference in scale adjusts success level, like Eero suggests, rather than giving bonus dice or something. But aren't I right that smaller scale should work as a positive when using Evasion and Manouvering and the like?
And what about armaments? Should they be equipment, abilities or secrets? And what about fighter escorts for bigger ships?
Whaaa! So much to decide! I appreciate all the help you can give me here!
Oh, one last thing! I think keys for ships would be lovely. Dramatic keys come naturally, like Serenity breaking down and Millennium Falcons hyperdrive failing, but I'm sure you could squeeze in a motivational key as well in there... ,-)
Eero Tuovinen:
Such a shame. I'll obviously have the play the Honor Harrington campaign myself, now that I have the basis of a rules-set for it.
Quote from: Simon JB on September 16, 2008, 04:32:48 AM
Now that I've been thinking about it a bit more I think the ships-as-characters way i the right one for this campaign. It would be like a troupe style play (something we were by the way already considering for this) where the player can switch between playing the human character commanding the ship and playing the ship with the commander as a supporting character. Yup, that feels just right for this scenario.
This works. Speaking for myself, I'd handle this as an extended version of the Secret of Companion (or whatsitsname, can't remember). Like so:
Secret of Ship
The character has gained possession of a ship and a crew, which act as an independent companion. Usually the ship does what the character tells it to, but the SG can ask for Leadership checks to convince the crew of tasks that fall outside their normal duties. The ship is statted by the Story Guide based on the fiction to begin with; companions do not have Keys (or their Keys are in hibernation as long as they're companions), except for the Key of the Companion.
(The fact that any size of ship only requires one Advance is balanced by the fact that others can take the ship away from you or use it against you in different ways whether it be big or small. Additionally, different sizes of ship are good for different things.)
Quote
Let's go with Harald's pools, Hull, Drives and Sensors, for the time being, but let's make Sensors be Systems to include computers and stuff.
Hull reflects not just strength of the hull, but also the size of the ship - and therefore, how much of anything and everything you can have stocked in there.
Drives could be renamed Energy, to reflect the other needs for power generation a ship might have apart from pushing it around.
Quote
I'm not sure how to do with scale. I guess it's best if difference in scale adjusts success level, like Eero suggests, rather than giving bonus dice or something. But aren't I right that smaller scale should work as a positive when using Evasion and Manouvering and the like?
As you already have Pools to reflect the size of the ship, you can just go like this:
Secret of Big-ass Cannon
This ship has one of those large plasma generator cannons that can only be fitted on the large warships. When fired by the weapons officer, it acts as +3 rated equipment. Cost: 4 Energy per shot
Now any ship with Energy Pool under 4 can't have a plasma generator, which solves the problem tidily. A larger ship will just have larger Pools, to allow ever more off-scale effects.
As for smaller and larger scale (if somebody wants to use the scale rules I suggested), the situation would depend on the details. But when both parties are working with their strengths and doing what the ships in question are supposed to be doing, then scale shouldn't be a factor at all. So when a small and quick ship is trying to escape, and the large one is trying to shoot it, you can just make Ability checks normally.
Quote
And what about armaments? Should they be equipment, abilities or secrets? And what about fighter escorts for bigger ships?
Whaaa! So much to decide! I appreciate all the help you can give me here!
The basic method in this sort of madness is to look at what is actually being done in play, and go from there. You can get by perfectly well with a surprisingly minimalistic set of stuff, as long as you know how you're approacing the ship-to-ship thing in general.
For example, you could handle fighter escorts as simple Abilities:
Fighter Wing (H)
The ship has a bay of smaller craft for interception and scouting purposes. They're fragile in battle, but deadly at close ranges, making them perfect against unarmed targets or defensive intercept. They're agile enough to catch enemy missiles in flight, too.
If the fighter thing seems especially cool and useful, you can make it prestigious by requiring a Secret:
Secret of Fighter Wing (H)
The ship has a bay of fighter planes and pilot crews enough for them all. The ship has the Fighter Wing (H) Ability at Mediocre (0), which may be further improved.
If you want to make the fighter thing special, feel free to pile on extra crunch:
Secret of Pilot Training
The ship has highly trained pilot aces. Roll a bonus die when using the Fighter Wing (H) Ability in a fight.
If it's a special focus of play, make some perverted special mechanical crunch for it:
Secret of Top Gun
The captain of this ship makes a Leadership check at the beginning of a session of play. Name this many fighter pilots who are members of the ship's crew - this is their story. The ship's player may at any point declare a short vignette that establishes something special about the life of one of these named pilots, making a Fighter Wing (H) check - the check result becomes an Effect for free. The Effect has to name the pilot in question, as each pilot may only have one Effect going on at once. If the Effect established for a given pilot is completely destroyed or exhausted at any point, that pilot dies. A pilot's Effect can be renewed by a new vignette, replacing the old Effect, but the new Effect has the normal cost.
And that's all there is to it!
More seriously, though, making a space campaign setting for Solar System is an ambitious undertaking. If I were in your shoes, I'd start really small - just focus on one simple idea at once and create a set of 2-4 Abilities, half a dozen Secrets and a couple of Keys for it. Hit your players with that and work with them to further tune the crunch to their characters. Then continue making up more crunch in bits between sessions. Don't try to have as much stuff as TSoY has all at once, you'll just go crazy doing it.
Actually, the Advanced Crunch section in the Solar System booklet is a pretty good example of what I mean. If I were to start a martial arts campaign today, I'd take that page and a half of martial arts rules from the booklet with me and work with the players to widen it into whatever we need. Preparing anything more would certainly be nice, but also a lot of work for a campaign that could, even with such an excellent game, fizzle horribly.
Quote
Oh, one last thing! I think keys for ships would be lovely. Dramatic keys come naturally, like Serenity breaking down and Millennium Falcons hyperdrive failing, but I'm sure you could squeeze in a motivational key as well in there... ,-)
I'd make these Keys for the character, not the ship. The ship itself can gain Advances by the character giving them to it:
Secret of Improvements
The character spends some time and effort at improving his ship. Remove this Secret and add one Advance to your ship, allotted the way you feel best. Difficult or unlikely improvements might require Engineering checks or rare technology to pull them off, though.
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