the preservation of antagonism
jag:
How about games that have an explicit meta-game resource for the antagonists? This could either be general "Twists of Fate" the GM can employ in any situation he wants, or specific "Villian Points" that in-color antagonists have. This way the antagonists can be defeated by sufficiently skillful actions of the players, but won't die from a single exceptional roll. Combined with an interesting economy like in Pace, this could allow a great protagonist-antagonist dynamic.
Depending on what you're seeking from the game, it's possible that the constraints introduced by scenarios #2 and #4 would be unsatisfying -- it might be the case that being undefeatable (at least permanently) would make the parts before the endgame less exciting.
James
Ben Lehman:
Hey, Paul. Do I read you rightly that you're not interested in the preservation of antagonism but in the preservation of antagonists?
If the character ceased being an antagonist, but you got to continue to portray them, would that be satisfying on not satisfying? Why?
yrs--
--Ben
Paul Czege:
Hey Ben,
Quote from: Ben Lehman on September 16, 2008, 08:13:10 AM
P.S. Hey, Paul, this may be kinda an edge case, but what about games that simply don't contain antagonists as such and get protagonism from other means?
Name one?
Quote from: Ben Lehman on September 17, 2008, 10:09:24 AM
Hey, Paul. Do I read you rightly that you're not interested in the preservation of antagonism but in the preservation of antagonists?
If the character ceased being an antagonist, but you got to continue to portray them, would that be satisfying on not satisfying? Why?
I dunno. I'm not interested in an antagonist to protagonist reversal that eclipses the protagonism of the player characters. I'd hate that from the other side of the table. I'm also not interested in owning a bunch of NPCs who're largely window dressing to protagonists and antagonists being run by the other players. If some NPCs fall by the wayside from my own failings, I can handle that. It's on me. Failures like that are part of the creative fun. I'll have other NPCs that might fare better. What I don't want is my best efforts getting authored out from under me or killed early on the upslope of my enjoyment of them.
Paul
Paul Czege:
Hey Frank,
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on September 17, 2008, 02:22:37 AM
Paul, I think #4 is not usually something that’s part of the game itself, in terms of general mechanics or setting. Rather, it’s part of scenario design. For some Forge games that’s largely congruent as scenario design is part of the game, but for others and certainly for traditional games it’s not....it doesn’t matter whether you play The Pool or HERO. So, I can’t point you to a specific game that does this, but my point is: You don’t (necessarily) need one. Thoughtful scenario creation will do that trick, too.
The challenge for scenarios with things like codes of bushido, or the requirement that cops be law abiding, is that players recognize the protagonizing power of transgressing and pursue it with their characters, because most genres that have such behavioral codes are actually about the transgressions. Perhaps I'm failing to see the forest, but I can't put my finger on a single other genre besides classic superheroes that actually breaks if the the code is violated. And that's what you need for #4. Something fundamental to the genre, but in a way that doesn't invest a transgressor with protagonism. What am I missing?
Paul
Frank Tarcikowski:
Well, more likely it’s me who is missing something because I just don’t get superheroes at all. It’s not my cup of tea, as our British friends would put it. You are of course right about transgression, but speaking of a dramatic structure, wouldn’t one usually build the action towards said transgression so that it will only happen at the climax of the story? I mean, you don’t want to preserve the antagonist forever, do you?
- Frank
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