Tunnels & Trolls advice
Ante:
That's the main T&T point of discussion, yes. I didn't mention it since I didn't thought it would help Peter to get more religious wars to read. It is a good resource for T&T discussions, though. I can be found there as the mountain troll Koraq.
Ron Edwards:
Hi Peter,
I'd like to address your biggest question, which although you didn't state it, is implied by many of your questions. It is, "How do we play, and how do I prep for that?"
The answer is, you will all play with the utmost "pushy" abandon. Characters will die, and that is OK, because each person has several characters. The characters who live will leap up very quickly in effectiveness and fun color, far past their initial puny states. The basic resolution, combat, money, EP, and magic mechanics all work together beautifully to create a kind of rhythm for play, and the Saving Roll rules add a level of crazy fun (and above all fast) creativity on top of that rhythm.
What I mean is that the players should be active, direct, ruthless, and basically unstoppably enthusiastic, and you as GM should be organized, ruthless, fair, and a little bit crazy. Here are some of the relevant points for preparing on that basis, taken directly from the 5.0 rules, and unfortunately not in any coherent order beyond my typing fingers.
1. There really isn't any "town" or outside to the dungeon, and if you make any such thing, it's pretty much just an extension of the dungeon concept anyway. In-character play ceases when they emerge into the light - instantly, wounds heal, new spells, weapons, and armor may be bought, and all EP/level rewards occur. (As a correlated point, which isn't mentioned in the rules, there's no reason to come up with interesting or driving back-stories for characters prior to play.)
2. Levels matter greatly. Remember that characters get EPs simply for touching their toes onto a new level, so decide carefully how many levels are involved, how dangerous they are, and whether it's easy or hard to get to the next one down.
3. You have several dials to decide upon regarding bestowing EPs. To use the level issue as an example, let's say the delvers penetrate to the third level in a given "raid." A slow-rise GM only gives them 300 points; a quick-rise GM gives them 100 + 200 + 300 for all three levels they touched. There are several of these sorts of dials in the rules, particularly regarding defeating foes, so find them and make decisions about them before play.
4. T&T relies on menaces. They can be funny, sinister, clever, realistic, unrealistic, brutal, subtle, or whatever you want, as you see fit - but there is no point at all in trying to make it some kind of "authentic" fantasy experience in the sense of D&D Second Edition, Rolemaster, or Der Schwarze Auge. Maybe some creatures or characters are allies, but the point is to have menaces around, everywhere, if not in their faces, then at least in the next room. Use whatever logic you like to justify them, but remember these things have a game purpose that outweighs in-setting logic.
5. A dungeon has a reason to exist that relies not on some kind of in-setting fantasy history, but on an in-joke: there's a being of some kind who lives at the bottom and uses it for something. That being should be a lot like you, or some satirical version of you. Some of the areas might be unimportant to this being, and hence overrun with Black Hobbits or spiders or something, but as the delvers experience the dungeon over and over, and as they get powerful and go deeper, they'll start discovering and certainly interfering with the aims of that "owner" being. So there is in-game history to use, but it shouldn't be very complicated or overly concerned with realism of any kind.
6. The dungeon is dynamic. When characters kill something, then other things from nearby move in and modify the area. If they defeat but do not obliterate a foe or group of foes, then when they return, the remaining ones will set a trap for them.
7. T&T play relies on repeated visits to a dungeon. I can't over-emphasize that. The logic of the rules make no sense unless the players strategize across raids, deciding whether they want to go deeper after a certain point, and so on. This also brings up the related issue of retreats - remember, magic or magic items aside, they won't heal until they get back outside (h'm, double-check the rules on that one, but mostly that's the case). My point is that the group goes in, gets a certain distance, and must face the tricky question of whether to press on or whether to start fighting a rear-guard action on their way out.
8. Personalities, personalities, personalities. Monsters care about stuff, even if it's just their smelly lairs. Make up names for them, play them to the hilt, give them funny hats or scary details. You will find, especially if there are charismatic player-characters, that a certain number of your monsters will become surprising allies instead, especially since players often realize "divide and conquer" is their best hope. So be prepared for that to happen and do not force it either way.
9. Make magic items and scatter them all over the place, especially if they require Saving Rolls to use properly, have limited charges, or carry fun side-effects like attracting rabid rats. The more random and colorful the better; I was amazed at how often players found a use for things of that sort.
In my current T&T prep, for whenever I play again, I am using a random generator for the floors, and then I put them in whatever vertical order I want, and then I stock it all myself. I think the Demonweb may be too helpful in that it stocks the dungeon by itself (I guess one might ignore that output); I love Gozzy's Random Map Creator. Do a search of your own and choose one you like.
I may be your primary reference for preferring the 5.0 rules. I don't mind admitting that this is partly historical - I did buy them in 1979, after all, and my great love dates from that time (and a crush on Liz Danforth, sight unseen, that remains to this day). But although I also think my preference is substantive, not merely historical/personal, that shouldn't stop you from using whatever you've got.
I do recommend stopping, now, all this obsession with resources and materials from on-line. T&T is supposed to be your game.
Best, Ron
Ante:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on October 16, 2008, 07:07:39 AM
Hi Peter,
I'd like to address your biggest question, which although you didn't state it, is implied by many of your questions. It is, "How do we play, and how do I prep for that?"
The answer is, you will all play with the utmost "pushy" abandon. Characters will die, and that is OK, because each person has several characters. The characters who live will leap up very quickly in effectiveness and fun color, far past their initial puny states. The basic resolution, combat, money, EP, and magic mechanics all work together beautifully to create a kind of rhythm for play, and the Saving Roll rules add a level of crazy fun (and above all fast) creativity on top of that rhythm.
Quote
4. T&T relies on menaces. They can be funny, sinister, clever, realistic, unrealistic, brutal, subtle, or whatever you want, as you see fit - but there is no point at all in trying to make it some kind of "authentic" fantasy experience in the sense of D&D Second Edition, Rolemaster, or Der Schwarze Auge. Maybe some creatures or characters are allies, but the point is to have menaces around, everywhere, if not in their faces, then at least in the next room. Use whatever logic you like to justify them, but remember these things have a game purpose that outweighs in-setting logic.
Quote
8. Personalities, personalities, personalities. Monsters care about stuff, even if it's just their smelly lairs. Make up names for them, play them to the hilt, give them funny hats or scary details. You will find, especially if there are charismatic player-characters, that a certain number of your monsters will become surprising allies instead, especially since players often realize "divide and conquer" is their best hope. So be prepared for that to happen and do not force it either way.
Ron's points above is my vague waffling about the dungeon like a tree with "bangs" for leaves, just much more lucid and clear.
Toss in funny, sinister, clever, realistic, unrealistic, brutal, subtle menaces and go wild! It's supposed to be colourful.
Quote
I may be your primary reference for preferring the 5.0 rules. I don't mind admitting that this is partly historical - I did buy them in 1979, after all, and my great love dates from that time (and a crush on Liz Danforth, sight unseen, that remains to this day). But although I also think my preference is substantive, not merely historical/personal, that shouldn't stop you from using whatever you've got.
I do recommend stopping, now, all this obsession with resources and materials from on-line. T&T is supposed to be your game.
Quoted for truth. Ignore the editions wars and do like KSA and Ron say. Make it your own.
rafial:
Quote
Quote
I do recommend stopping, now, all this obsession with resources and materials from on-line. T&T is supposed to be your game.
Quoted for truth. Ignore the editions wars and do like KSA and Ron say. Make it your own.
Double quoted for truth! Nobody, not even Ken St. Andre plays T&T exactly according to ANY printed rule set. There are two common core mechanics (Saving Rolls, buckets-o-dice combat) that are virtually identical across all editions, and the rest is fit to taste. Pick some rules, any rules, run them, see what you like, what you don't, customize to taste, rinse lather repeat. In T&T, house rules are king!
Callan S.:
Terrible, horrible person here asking, why would you make it your own, when you don't even know if it's any good yet?
Is this like choosing what sports team you barrack for - it's not a matter of their past performance, it's more about just believing in one? Fair enough I would say, if that's the case. I don't knock peoples passion for a team, whether the teams behind or ahead. I respect that passion.
But if your not choosing that way, then going straight to making it your own is skipping any qualitive evaluation of the product and going straight to making it your own, as if the product is inherantly good somehow and already deserves to be made your own.
If you want to run a qualitive assessment; I would suggest that if it's intended that to play the game you choose what rules components you employ, then choosing those components is actually gameplay itself, even before your sketching out a dungeon, let alone rolling dice against a monster in a particular room of it.
Since the start of play is choosing components...if you want to do a qualitivie analysis, is finding all the components you can, fun? If so, choose some components, then see if that felt fun to do so. If that's fun, move on to the next steps, and so on. I think that's one way of evaluating it.
Qualitive assessment or believing in it like your loyal to your sports team. Either is a good choice. I'm not sure if there's a third way of doing it or not. Peter, which way are you coming from, or does neither seem applicable?
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