[Sorcerer] Getting involved in the Carnival Bizarre
Ron Edwards:
Hi Christoph,
My apologies for delaying my reply for so long.
Perception should be handled with a keen eye toward whether such a roll is a conflict. In the cases you're describing, it seems as if no conflict is possible, as nothing would be "pushing back" against Alyssia's ability. So you are on the right track with your interpretation. It's very similar to a player-character trying to jump over an elephant - there's no roll. However, keep that keen eye handy, because as play progresses, the characters may well become legitimate targets.
Identifying sorcerers' and demons' Telltales through rolls is actually a big deal. I agree that it's not an intuitive part of play, and I've seen some groups turn it into a power-trip (I know yoooooou're a sorcerer, and you don't know that IIIIII am!) simply because they didn't know what else to do with it. I'll try to outline my thinking about why I put it in there.
First, the mechanics: to identify another character as a sorcerer, the player rolls Lore vs. the other character's Lore. To identify a demon as a demon, roll Lore against a single opposing die, regardless of any scores. These rules were actually garbled in the first printing of the book, but were corrected for later printings. You can see the old Errata entry at the Sorcerer website, if your copy is from that first printing (I doubt it, actually, that was seven years and a lot of printings ago).
Second, and a bit out of order, why would such a thing be a roll? Well, the default notion is that a sorcerer and a demon are not advertising themselves as what they are. There's a default "don't spot me as such" built into the concepts. Therefore, the Lore rolls are handled as a GM-directed roll, just as a defensive roll againt a sudden attack would be, rather than based on what a player says the character is trying to do. In other words, when the characters are in one another's presence for the first time, include the Telltales in the fiction and roll Lore for everyone as above.
The exception to that point is that if the characters are obviously doing sorcery and being demons, or perhaps walking up and saying "Hi, I'm a sorcerer," or anything equivalent, then the default "don't spot what I am" assumption no longer applies. No roll is necessary and the relevant information (I am a sorcerer / I am a demon) are already part of the fiction.
Third, and finally, the reason. This is something I only learned through direct application and did not have the vocabulary to explain until recently. When you use those rolls, even though they have no necessary direct impact in the fiction at the moment, all the characters are now "situated" in a particular matrix of knowledge and its absence. No matter who knows what about whom, and who doesn't, we as players now have a very powerful basis to help inform our choices about what our character will and won't do.
Given what you posted, all of which I agree with, this technique should actually be welcomed by you because it absolves the GM of arbitrary knowledge parameters. You no longer have to front-load certain game events and relationships by saying what characters automatically know about one another at first sight - the mechanics handle that and preserve the positive, interesting, situation-shifting element of such knowledge without anyone giving that element a particular shape.
I found myself getting abstract for a moment there. Am I making sense? Let me know.
Some older threads:
On Telltales
Really stupid Telltale question (possibly the winner of the most misleadingly named thread contest; I'm not sure if I answered this excellent question well at all)
Trying to find out if an object is demonic?
However, I just spent ages trying to find this absolutely appropriate thread about a warrior-woman demon and whether she'd be (a) noticed and (b) identified as a demon, and when. But I can't find it yet, and so will add it when I do.
I hope all that helps!
Best, Ron
Christoph Boeckle:
Hi Ron, thanks for the detailed reply! It makes perfect sense as usual and the links were useful.
Don't worry about the delays, I understand the Forge rhythm and recently there's been tons of things to read.
I hadn't realized how powerful that "identify the sorcerous" roll was, because for now, the only sorcerers and demons were those the players created and were anyway aware of. It is going to help me take off my gloves. It's all about "subtext", like accompanying a narration with a specific raise in Dogs in the Vineyard for example, a thing which I'm very fond of. Subtext for presenting adversity and letting the players a chance to position their characters accordingly.
Now, how about going back and deciding, hey, Altar was a sorcerer all along! I can think of a number of ways how this is credible in the fiction as seen from the point of view of an audience, but the players have not rolled against him and so are supposed to know that he isn't a sorcerer. How backstabby is that going to be? I make a whole fuss over such things, the players probably couldn't care less (so you forgot/changed your mind/etc., so what?)
As a matter of fact, I was hoping to let the relations between all the characters take form before choosing one or two of those already revealed to be sorcerers (not more, others will come in later) but since no roll has been made, I'd betray the subtext quality of that "identify the sorcerous" mechanic.
Ron, I'll be writing up an AP of my last Dust Devil one-shot session shortly. I think there's something similar to that anxiousness (which has just gone down a step thanks to your explanation). I'll be talking about authorities and adversity and asking you specifically to help me out if you agree to. I'm suspecting there's a bigger picture behind all of this.
Cheers
Ron Edwards:
Hi Christoph,
Cool - I'm glad I actually made sense!
You wrote,
Quote
Now, how about going back and deciding, hey, Altar was a sorcerer all along! ... I make a whole fuss over such things, the players probably couldn't care less (so you forgot/changed your mind/etc., so what?)
After all these years of playing the game, I don't find myself asking this question any more. Mainly because I've found that however I've prepped it, the players are choosing their preferred conflicts and eventual goals for their characters anyway, so there's no need to revise. But it's true, some years ago, I found myself revising certain NPCs into sorcerers or demoting them, as it were, into non-sorcerers. What I found in doing that was that non-sorcerer characters are sometimes really tough and significant, particularly when they have high Cover scores. A different sort of "rules presence," but an effective one nonetheless. Once I figured that out, I stopped worrying about the issue and typically prepped little or even no other sorcerers into play besides the player-characters.
So my advice is to go with the revision if you'd like, because maybe it's a learning stage. And I sadly have to agree with you about the players, although in practical terms it's good news; in my experience, I'd devote hours to tuning certain aspects of in-game cause for an upcoming session, and they'd go "ah, whatever" when I tried to show it off in play. (Favorite example: time-travel involving multiple jumps at different times in various characters' lives, all rendered lovely and consistent, and they couldn't have cared less - "Oh, the Pleistocene? Cool!")
Best, Ron
Christoph Boeckle:
Good stuff, I buy that easily about the non-sorcerers. Although they will be eaten the day the PCs bring their demons along, and that's how it should be in my vision for the Carnival Bizarre.
Also, the prep. I made a sketchy map of the city, of which I'm actually quite proud of despite it's ugliness. One guy (don't remember which one): "oh, did you have a good time drawing the map?" Gahh! This city is beautiful! I sigh, I laugh. It has already proved useful for establishing colour.
By the way, any comment on the character map? I'm perfectly okay with it just being a handy reference and never directly mentioned.
kwelndar:
Just to fill in the other Telltale thread Ron mentioned, I think the one he was talking about was
Telltale and Cloak
which involves a Valkyrie demon with a Cover of Warrior-Woman.
- Jay
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