Gaming store models
David Artman:
Quote from: Seth M. Bashwinger on November 08, 2008, 05:11:03 PM
...admittedly alcohol always seems to deter productive gaming habits.
I think this point is a non-starter. Because I could easily counter with, "well, I almost never game without drinking, which is why I almost never game in a store." It's about habits, and everyone's got their own, and any anecdote is worth just that: one vote, one demographic, out of thousands (or millions, if in a big city). Judging from what I see at local cons and DragonCon, I think there's a BIG percentage of gamers who like a nip of whiskey or a pint with their minis and dice.
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What do you think of sectioning off a section of the shop where drinking and gaming happens but also a more quite area where people who still want the silence can relax.
Eh, if you've got the space, why not? I've been to pubs where there's a quieter back room, for private parties or whatever. But I'd bet the average gaming table is quieter than the average sports-fan table or birthday-party table, so you've got a bit of apples and oranges comparison, when you imagine a "normal pub" but full of gamers. Sound levels would be closer to those at a convention. And all that said, we haven't spoken a bit about interior design, some elements of which can dampen sound very well.
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Can you tell me how we'd spend even $30 per 45 minutes if the four of us sat down for four or five hours of gaming in your gamer pub? If you have a restaurant infrastructure (waitstaff, kitchen, etc.), you need to generate revenue per hour from your floor space like a restaurant.
You're waffling me here, a bit, and begging the question.
1) I said pub, not restaurant. The pub I hang out at has a "kitchen" about the size of my walk-in closet at home, and it serves (IIRC) about 60 seats of tables. It has one cook most of the day; two, if it's a busy weekend night dinner crowd. The bar is tended by one person all but about 5 hours out of the day (where there might be two waits and, if REALLY busy, another bartender).
2) You re-flipped my mode back into a bunch of gamers sitting in a bar, not the direction I was going (a bar that supports and encourages gaming by its decor, furnishing, loaners, and lack of loud-ass sound system or blaring TVs). I'll get plenty of "regular" folks coming in, table for four, $60 in an hour and done.
3) Neither my concept, nor any pub I've hung out in, needs anywhere near $8 gross revenue per seat per hour to make money. And most at which I hang out can expect to earn near that anyway (gross), from pint or bottle beer sales, nevermind liquor or top-shelf (or multi-mix) drinks. There's a sweet spot, sure--that's why bar owners spend a lot of time pouring over their books, looking for what sells well for decent margins. That's why food costs are controlled and menus are carefully structured to require minimal labor and storage. It's business as usual, but....
4) I've never attended a bar that can earn hundreds, if not thousands, a week selling paraphernalia. But the game store "pro shop" attached to it is going to be a little store, with a minimal footprint (remember: no gaming space; no DVDs and comics--just shelves of games and more games). It won't even stay open past 7 or 8 or 9, and it could be staffed by one (steely-eyed) clerk. A few hundred square feet, shelves, and a register.
So I think you're thinking places like Applebee's or some such, with big ass line kitchens and freezers and such (I suppose--I have no idea what Max & Emma's is like); but I'm thinking of pubs where a solid 80% of their total under-roof space is for patrons and you've got MAYBE one wait to backup the bartender, most hours of the day.
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And if you're not a restaurant, and your gaming space is free, you're day-care on the weekends. Moms drop their kids off in the morning with their M:tG cards or Warhammer figs and a single crisp Jackson for food and snacks and they're there for the whole day.
Yep, that's a game store for ya--if you don't like a day care job, don't open one. DEFINITELY don't open one near other major shopping destinations.
Of course, if it's a bar.... Well, they can't just drop a kid under 21 (or 18) at the bar without a parent, can they? Would they even try? ;^)
In short, I think the gamer bar is a solid, unique concept... but I don't know FOR SURE it can work, or I'd have one up and running already (Atlanta, I bet, could handle one). But if we're gonna bandy about ideas for gaming + other service, it's a strong hit with more profitable goods (pub food and alcohol are know high margin items, not to mention $6 packs of cigarettes!) and it's a niche that's not served by the other two big stores in his area (remember the original post?).
Seth M. Drebitko:
I could easily counter with, "well, I almost never game without drinking, which is why I almost never game in a store."
This is true quite a bit does get done at a lot of the bigger con’s with people drinking.
One of the reasons I wanted to divide the bar up from say where normal beverages can be purchased is because it means I could get things zoned so that in say the 2/3rds of the bar not selling drinks people under 21 could still enter.
I think ultimately with the thought of the bar added in the best model would be:
- 2/3rd standard sitting area, and 1/3rd as the bar
- The extent of food would be some few baked goods, home made breads, sandwiches and soups.
- Internet access/computers
- Our personal games would be on stock
- Twice a week free shipping orders at amazon prices for gaming/miscellaneous material
- The bar, and normal side would have special events, and possibly (depending on the size of space we get) setting up personal rooms for private parties or gaming nights.
Ultimately the first step will be putting out our games first so we have our products to keep on hand.
David Artman:
Quote from: Seth M. Bashwinger on November 14, 2008, 04:18:17 AM
One of the reasons I wanted to divide the bar up from say where normal beverages can be purchased is because it means I could get things zoned so that in say the 2/3rds of the bar not selling drinks people under 21 could still enter.
Well, I hear ya on wanting the kids. but you're back to day care, then. And I doubt a mere "zone" would be sufficient for unattended children under 18, if you have liquor under the roof (local laws vary, though). You're talking about two disconnected, but associated, business now (here in NC, at least).
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- 2/3rd standard sitting area, and 1/3rd as the bar
Great until about 7 or 8... suck after that, until 2am (or whenever, for your area). The bar is a money engine, why limit it in size?
Now, if local laws allow you to partition space as a sufficient "barrier" to separate kids from the bar... well, then you got a potential sweet spot: you can make it "mostly club" until about dinner time (6ish), then repartition with some sliding walls and so forth (see most hotel convention rooms for examples) and maximize the bar space for dinner and late night. THAT could be HOT!
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- The extent of food would be some few baked goods, home made breads, sandwiches and soups.
Selling yourself short. Again, that closet-sized kitchen I mention above supports a full menu of entrees, salads, sandwiches, "pub grub" (fried shit, basically) and appetizers. Now, if the above just happens to be what you and yours KNOW how to easily make... well, I'd advise you to at least consult with a professional chef or cook, to build a menu that's efficient (space, ingredients, and appliances-wise) and still diverse. And don't forget specials--the best way to sell off nearly spoiled food and control wastage. THOSE will take creativity and some trips to the local grocery or farmer's market.
I'm just saying--the more you value add and distinguish, the more customers you'll draw, gamer or not. A "convenience store" menu like the above is no better than what's offered at your competitors' places, right (and I bet those places are on strip malls with other restaurants and so forth--TOUGH competition, if you're not unique).
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- Internet access/computers
Mistake. We can make a new thread, but Internet Cafe is about to be a bust industry. The $100 laptop will kill it dead. And do you REALLY want to compete with that space, adding a third (or are we up to fourth) cost center and maintenance chores and depreciating assets?
Ugh... I would just as soon slit my throat as maintain "gaming PCs" for a bunch of kids. (No offense, kids!)
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- Our personal games would be on stock
And that's it? Umm... OK, I guess. your baby. But you're pretty much cutting out hundreds (or more) in weekly revenue, with this idea:
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- Twice a week free shipping orders at amazon prices for gaming/miscellaneous material
I could see that working ONLY IF it's YOUR Amazon store, with you taking profits. This, however, just makes your "game store" into some warehouse somewhere, from which you haul what folks bought that week. Why not just have a normal brick and morter store, supporting the games folks want to play, with all the supplements they'll impulse buy as they're leveling (or the TCG/Clix they hoover up just on principle)?
And where's the "entry-level" games, the stuff that will intrigue non-gamers who wander in and "want to give it a shot"? You can't plop down just any game and expect them to run with it--you'll need the Fluxx and tthe Munchkin and so forth, to sell them... and maybe THEN, they end up meeting a group of RPGers and learn our (somewhat arcane and confusing, at first) hobby from one who can teach them.
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- The bar, and normal side would have special events, and possibly (depending on the size of space we get) setting up personal rooms for private parties or gaming nights.
That's fine. Sort of goes unsaid, if you're a "gamer bar"--you're going to have tournaments, promotional nights, mini-cons (day-cons), etc.
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I'm talking myself into this business. :)
I know for a fact that such a place would immediately be my regular pub, assuming it wasn't staffed by assholes (what is it with gaming store staff, anyway--another thread, maybe) or slackers (what IS it with... yeah, yeah). And I would definitely be running min-cons out of it (and hosting them--MACE uses a Golden Corral for its mini-con, for Pete's sake!).
Ah.... maybe when the credit market loosens up....
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Anyhow, not trying to piss on your parade. I'm just giving you advice based on the experiences of a 25-year gamer, 20-year drinker, and 12-year food service and hospitality worker. And PC game support technician (2 years) and service tech (6 years). (Yes, I ABHOR the internet cafe/gaming PC concept.)
Ron Edwards:
Hey David and Seth,
It's pretty clear you're not disagreeing on how to do X. Instead, you're arguing the merits of doing X vs. doing Y. It's also clear that Seth doesn't want to do Y under any circumstances, and David doesn't want to do X under any circumstances. The thread is getting to the point where X and Y are simply being attacked, spuriously in some cases, and the thread is turning into a badminton match.
Both of you can stop now. Seth, you asked for opinions, ideas, and criticisms, and you got some. Take what you like and let the rest go without attacking it. David, you provided those things, and now it's time to let Seth choose what he wants rather than defending your input.
Best, Ron
David Artman:
Fair enough--just tossing out refinements of the "split" business (first one was split into "pro shop" and "eatery space"; now it's "kids space" v. "bar space"). And, believe it or not, I'm trying to be encouraging... while pointing out weaknesses in some of the offerings (viz Internet cafe).
In the spirit of moving forward with more models...
Now, I'm wondering if a pool hall model would work as well: beer and beverage sales, table rentals per hour--with BAD ASS miniature elements to borrow, and games, and painted minis and so-forth--the thing the folks are REALLY renting. And we all know pool halls are happy to sell cues and gloves and cases and shit.
Or the casino model--similar to the pool hall (and bar, frankly), but you have GM staff (dealers) who run regular games, on a posted schedule, with sign-ups and so forth. This might be, again, a pay-per-hour table arrangement.
Hehe... roller rink/Lazer Tag arena model, for contact LARPs! Warehouse space, team battles on a schedule, tournaments, selling costuming and boffers (and food and drink). Actually, I've had friends thinking about how to do this affordably (and, ideally, profitably) with a permanent site and structures that can be reconfigured for various genres.
OK, ok... just riffing, now. As might be imagined by now, I've thought a LOT over the years about how to make some kind of "gaming store PLUS" business, so I can quit my boring IT job. :)
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