[TSOY] Near's Arid North, Part 1: Sohakaimet
shadowcourt:
Thanks for the encouragement everyone.
Very quickly, some clarifications, and solicitation thereof:
oliof,
It's not the Hamouadi who are enslaving elves, but my proto-Qek culture. More on them later, but they've got a very Aztec vibe to them. Their reasons for wanting elves under their thumb will be revealed, but it's pretty self-evident, I think, if you consider an elf's relationship to the existence of a sasha. That said, theocratic Hamouad doesn't love elves either, but it's more of a splitting hairs on theology issue.
My concerns about making something like a Secret of Shame is that it becomes grounds for things like a Secret of Wrath or what-have-you, where these Secrets end up popping *constantly*. "I'm cooking in an ANGRY way! I'm painting this painting with my ANGER!" etc etc. It's not a problem in some games, but I hate the constant exchange before every roll that it entails, and how it ends up limiting character actions as opposed to opening them up. It might simply work better if I changed Shame's name to something else, but Humility didn't seem quite right either. I wanted to reflect that it was a character's ability to seem contrite as well as to humiliate others for their injudicious actions.
Eero,
Absolutely. The Sohakai are totally up for grabs for future Near-themed publications, which is why I'm premiering them here, to solicit suggestions from people and try and tailor them. Hopefully some of the connections to things like giants are already hinted at. I hope it was clear that I was talking about ratkin living on the bodies of titans, as well. I'm going to make some of that more explicit with the Secret crunch, as well. I think for the first time I might have a few Cultural Secrets that have Species requirements. I don't want to overdo things like that, as it gets to be a pretty tiny niche one is maneuvering in, but I think sometimes it's really fun to show with a little crunchiness just how, say, a Zaru ratkin might be different from a Maldorite one, or a Khalean elf has different options than an Oranid or Ammenite one.
The ley line magics are forthcoming. I have a system for it which is... not revolutionary, certainly, but hopefully got a little bit of spunk to it. It's one of those sections I'm really not wed to, also. If someone comes up with something genius that would work better, I'm all ears. Even as I write this, I'm thinking about potential rewrites.
We should talk about this, though, because I want to be clear on what you mean:
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Very fantastic, too - perhaps could stand having some minor element of human strife to keep vaguely rooted in the sword & sorcery sensibility? Unless you're planning to do the whole of the northern clime in a slightly different style, of course.
It's true that I envision the Sohakai in an almost fantasy post-apocalyptic setting. Is that what you're referring to, in that they might be flavor-different than the rest of Near? Hopefully there are some reasons, both fluff and crunch, which keep them bounded in that kind of headspace even if they're elsewhere on Near. It's easy to establish it in their own ruined nation, but outside of it, they carry their guilt with them in their remoteness from others (the masks, for one thing) and the danger their own cultural magics present (more on that when the geomancy line stuff is articulated).
Maybe I didn't make it clear because I haven't laid out Keys yet, for instance, but I think the daily struggle of life is not the only source of drama for these guys. One conceit is that their culture is interacting more and more with outsiders, and that this is leading to a drift in the intensity of personal and group guilt which the elders of the Sohakai find dangerous. Rebellious youth are meeting outsiders and wondering why *those* folks don't have to go masked all the time. Lots of potential for the power of romance and love in a world where you're forbidden to show your face. I guess I need to make more of that more explicit.
Another aspect is the competition between, but necessity for relying on, other enclaves of Sohakai. It's not a land where the individual does well, but if groups are too large they can't support themselves.
Let me turn the question around, then, as I'm not sure I'm getting it. What would root them in a sword & sorcery sensibility? Do they seem detached from it, to you?
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Also, potentially relating to the human angle: what sort of cultural boundary interfaces do you envision for Sohakai towards the other peoples of Near, or are they a secluded people? The Maldorean Near is big on the cultural conflicts and the whole "shadow of the empire" -theme, how is it up north?
Well, part of the secret is that I consider Khale and Qek to be as much a part of the northern cluster as I do the southern. They, like Oran, are very much border nations that interact frequently between both of those clusters. So, some cultural tensions, as I envision them. Some of these won't make sense until more is said on these nations, I suspect, but I'll try all the same:
Hamouad is a cross-roads point, as a culture which has tremendous wealth but is building its history as it goes. Before the Year of Shadow, the Hamouadi were slaves to sorcerer-kings called the Wazidi, but the Year of Shadow caused that magic to fail and brought about a slave uprising which turned messianic. They've got some "Dune" to them (I can never really hide my sources there), and are interested in spreading their religion (which has no god at the center of it, and instead venerates the bloodline of their messianic revolutionary) to other nations, but aren't actively engaged in full-force war yet. Qek, Khaleans, Oranids, Sohakai, and others are infidels who should ultimately be shown the light, but the nation has plenty of internal problems, and is not fully solidified. Schisms among members of the ruling bloodline are problematic, as well; just because your great great grandfather was a revolutionary prophet doesn't mean you're all that holy, yourself, and people seeking power through the priesthood runs rampant.Hamouad and the proto-Qek are both expansionist cultures with ideas about sovereignty, though what motivates each is very different. The proto-Qek have absolutely no qualms about slavery, and the Hamouadi preach freedom but are hypocritical in how they will subordinate foreigners and force outsiders into mameluke positions in their armies. So, military tension is a real possibility on the Hamouad and proto-Qek front; these are not nations that "get" each other at all, but regard each other as SO alien that it can be hard to simply grasp them. The fact that these might be mercenaries and slave-armies makes that all the more heated.Outsiders are likely to find Sohakaimet a frightening place with not a huge amount to offer, unless you're keen on understanding the nature of the titans or ley magics, or raiding the spoils of what was once a healthier culture with more prodigious arts. As such, this might make them a little dry and disappointing as a place to visit, so maybe I need to spice that element up a bit. I'm not sure what to offer to encourage players to "visit scenic Sohakaimet and die...!", though. It's not really a nation anymore; much like Qek or Khale, there isn't a centralized government to interact with, and enclaves are fighting each other to survive.
I have a lot more thought out on the national interactions, but maybe it'll become more clear when Hamouad and the Qek ancestors are laid out. They're the big players on the international scene, and how they work with the other nations might make all the puzzle pieces fall into place. You might be on to something, though, in that the Sohakai need more stuff to be a'buzz about. We know who they are, but what they do might need more fleshing out.
Hmmm.
-shadowcourt (aka Josh)
Eero Tuovinen:
One thing I'm reminded about concerning the north: The Torrid Clime is probably rather awful and completely unpassable, I just know it.
Quote from: shadowcourt on November 06, 2008, 08:46:42 AM
My concerns about making something like a Secret of Shame is that it becomes grounds for things like a Secret of Wrath or what-have-you, where these Secrets end up popping *constantly*. "I'm cooking in an ANGRY way! I'm painting this painting with my ANGER!" etc etc. It's not a problem in some games, but I hate the constant exchange before every roll that it entails, and how it ends up limiting character actions as opposed to opening them up. It might simply work better if I changed Shame's name to something else, but Humility didn't seem quite right either. I wanted to reflect that it was a character's ability to seem contrite as well as to humiliate others for their injudicious actions.
I agree about the emotions. I don't see your Ability as a problem, though, especially if you name and describe it to convey an expertise in the local cultural mores - it's not an Ability for doing something with a feeling, but an Ability for feeling that feeling in the first place, and causing others to feel it. No different from a rhetorical skill in that regard. "Knowledge of the Sohakai Shame" would be a bit long as a name, though.
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Absolutely. The Sohakai are totally up for grabs for future Near-themed publications, which is why I'm premiering them here, to solicit suggestions from people and try and tailor them. Hopefully some of the connections to things like giants are already hinted at. I hope it was clear that I was talking about ratkin living on the bodies of titans, as well.
Yes, I like the ratkin idea. Gives them a new sort of niche, they all tend to live in some sort of monoculture down south - it's just a matter of whose garbage bin they're robbing, insofar as dramatic detail is concerned.
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I'm going to make some of that more explicit with the Secret crunch, as well. I think for the first time I might have a few Cultural Secrets that have Species requirements. I don't want to overdo things like that, as it gets to be a pretty tiny niche one is maneuvering in, but I think sometimes it's really fun to show with a little crunchiness just how, say, a Zaru ratkin might be different from a Maldorite one, or a Khalean elf has different options than an Oranid or Ammenite one.
I have no problem with culture/race cross-specific crunch, myself. Probably won't need much of that in the typical game, of course, being that roleplayers generally aren't interested in a super-focused campaign where everybody has to play a duck from Duckburg instead of everybody getting their own favourite individual character fetish.
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The ley line magics are forthcoming. I have a system for it which is... not revolutionary, certainly, but hopefully got a little bit of spunk to it. It's one of those sections I'm really not wed to, also. If someone comes up with something genius that would work better, I'm all ears. Even as I write this, I'm thinking about potential rewrites.
We'll need to compare notes with the Qek knotcraft (the thing I designed for Finnish TSoY, I think I wrote about it somewhere on the forums one time), as it's a sort of geographical magic as well, if a toned-down one. Perhaps there'll be some fruitful synergy.
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Very fantastic, too - perhaps could stand having some minor element of human strife to keep vaguely rooted in the sword & sorcery sensibility? Unless you're planning to do the whole of the northern clime in a slightly different style, of course.
It's true that I envision the Sohakai in an almost fantasy post-apocalyptic setting. Is that what you're referring to, in that they might be flavor-different than the rest of Near?
Mostly that, yes. From the description it seems that the problems of the people are not the sort of human trouble that the cultures around Maldor seem to be meshed in. The striking first reaction I have for playing this stuff is to go out and slay some titans, which is pretty pure-bred high fantasy. Not a problem for me, as long as the tone and topic meshes well with the other cultures, races and whatnot around Sohakaimet.
It's also a possibility that what you're developing here is a closed, essentially marginalized culture that does not need to harmonize and recombine with others. Qek is like this in original TSoY: it's separated by geography, culture and cultural skills from the rest of the world to such a degree that in the overwhelming majority of campaigns their only relevance will be as the place from whence the primitive, creepy shaman PC came from. Having that sort of marginal place is just fine if that's what you're shooting for here.
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Let me turn the question around, then, as I'm not sure I'm getting it. What would root them in a sword & sorcery sensibility? Do they seem detached from it, to you?
Not detached necessarily, no. If you find that this harmonizes well, then I'm pretty sure that it does. We've just not seen enough of the grand plan to see what sort of cross-cultural concerns these people are going to have with the others you're planning. Taken alone, the focus on an ancient, dramatic magical wrong that shapes their whole lives is pretty distinctive and puts a lot of cultural pressure on any characters - they basically have to abandon their people to gain a sense of personal identity, or they have to become heroes who quest to put a stop to the unnatural and, one would imagine, untenable situation. This is much like Zaru, except that they are set in opposition to a human culture instead of gods, which makes for a big difference. Perhaps there are some middle-range roles in between titan slaying and becoming a detached rogue, but currently I'm not seeing much play situated in Sohakaimet that isn't concerned with one or the other. The titanic vision is just so majestic that it swallows everything else, perhaps.
To make it more about the people, try to find some space for characters who have concerns, especially conflicted concerns, on the human level. Prove to us that a life can be had without committing to a life of deific genocide, if you will. For Zaru that life lies in the fact that their enemies are not gods, but human, and thus able to be overcome or bargained with locally and universally. Where is the human conflict in Sohakaimet?
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Well, part of the secret is that I consider Khale and Qek to be as much a part of the northern cluster as I do the southern. They, like Oran, are very much border nations that interact frequently between both of those clusters.
I like, makes sense. At least for Qek; I haven't pictured Khale's cultural ties to reach that far, it strikes me as a pretty insular society, all told. But why not, I'm certainly going to mix all these people up for my home games, anyway.
shadowcourt:
Eero,
Hmmm. Good points all around on that. I think you crystallized what's been bugging me about the Sohakai all along, in that I want to express some things about the tensions and politics of the society without becoming a "let's all band together and kill our old gods" kind of story. The human level of the conflict isn't well thought out yet. I need to think about how to make this germinate into interesting stories, and your Ammenite/Zaru example is particularly poignant for me. There are hundreds of stories available in that relationship, because it's such an inherently human one. Stockholm Syndrome. Slavery vs. freedom. Passive resistance vs. violence. Forbidden cross-cultural love. And there are tons more.
I need to find similar sparkage with internal issues, or external ones, for Sohakaimet. So, perhaps they go on t he back-burner for now, as I wait to see what might pop up for them. I like their portrait, but the fact that it's a portrait tells me that they're static in my mind at the moment. Something needs to change therein.
Thanks for the input so far, everyone.
-shadowcourt (aka Josh)
dindenver:
Josh,
It took me a while to sift through this all.
I agree that it is missing that gut-level sword and sorcery feel.
I had an idea, what if the conflict comes from external sources. The Sohakaai remind me of the Zaru in the sense that their own belief structure is what is actually oppressing them. I think what might set them apart is being a staunch and aggressive defenders of their beliefs and taboos.
So, the idea goes, what if there are raiders constantly trying to plunder the old world riches and the Sohakai dedicate themselves to protect that bounty?
Also, the Titans are clearly monsters, which sort of breaks the no gods, no monsters, just humans theme. Ir is complicated by the fact that they are considered gods... Or, what if the Titans are nebulous enough that the players can re-work them as clever bandits or local myth?
Or maybe it would work better if the giants were more metaphorical or just humans that were big like the ratkins are small...
I know Shadow of the Colossus is an awesome game, but I think it needs a little drift to fit in Near, no? Or maybe you are transferring it a little to literally into the game text?
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