[TSoY] Words of Zu, how powerful are they?
Eero Tuovinen:
Harald has a good point there. Looking at canonical Near, Zu is the only truly global backstory we get. Threecorner magic is clever and made by the best men of an empire, Moon-metal is alien and heralds the new age of the Moon, but Zu is what the world is made of. I'd say that in the Annual Geek Tournament it's the zu-wizard who's got a leg up on everybody else.
Of course, if your character believes all that jazz, my character has an old, completely genuine map he wants to sell to you...
dindenver:
Harold,
Yeah, I took the Zaru origin story to be a local phenomenon (as opposed to a universal truth). All the other magicks are local, no reason to believe the Zaru would be the exception. Its clear that Zu affects non-believers, but so does every other magic, Qek Spirit magic, Khale Music Magic, Ammenite Alchemy and three-corner magic.
I was mostly asking if, in play some words proved to be more problematic than others. Like somehow the word for light seems innocuous, but when used like this, it becomes a nightmare to GM or whatever.
Also, while we are discussing it, does anyone have a comments on Eero's interpretation of Zu syllable applicability. He seems to think to use the "magic wish" rule (meaning to use the most twisted version of the words application. This would promote the need for more syllables in order to prevent incorrect application of the syllables you have, but it seems kind of like giving a kid a toy, but not letting them play with it. Not trying to say you are overly harsh Eero, just trying to see where this philosophy comes from, my guess would be to limit the power of magic as you prefer low-magic campaigns, but I don't know). That is counter to my general style of play, but maybe others have experience running TSoY and feel that that is right on?
shadowcourt:
I think I draw a bit from Eero's technique, if only in that I'm into the literalism that exists back in the early edition of TSOY (not sure if it translated over to the 2nd edition, but smart money says it did), which is to say that saying "beast" and hoping for a rampaging monster is nice, but if you say it in the middle of the rice paddies, you're more likely to get a lazy water buffalo. Zu is used for describing the world around you, and "beast" means different things in different places. In fact, there might even be some interesting subjectivity to the speaker, as well, if we believe that language is intentional. Would an Oranid, bound to a horse as if it were his own brother, really consider it to be a "beast" if he were lucky enough to learn the Zu word for it. Similarly, might an Ammenite not get a Zaru slave if he said "beast," which another Zaru never would if he spoke the same syllable.
I think I've had fairly cunning players in terms of their syllable selection, choosing things which were pretty broad and flavorful. We've also had the occasional theft of a convenient Zu word from an NPC now and again (I recall having one player who stole "blood/bleed/bloody" and had fun with it periodically). My feeling on Zu is that its syllables express ideas which are fairly elementary, which leads to the whole "knife-tooth hunting beast" necessity if you want your word to virtually guarantee a panther (an example which shows up in the old TSOY rulebook). That said, you could use that same syllable string elsewhere to get a wolf, or other big carnivore predator.
No matter how many syllables are strung together, my group has only done pool cost based off of effect. So, if you used "knife-tooth-hunting-beast" as a noun with a bunch of adjectives applied to it, you still pay the 1 pool cost for a noun (is it Vigor for nouns? I'll be damned if I can remember this right...). Ditto for using "big-bleed" to make blood geyser out of a person; it's still just a modified verb, so you pay the 1 Instinct (?) for that effect. It's just... more prolific. There's more than enough cost in that four Advances (!) you paid for the lucky shot of being able to get a panther when you wanted one, which STILL isn't a panther under your control, and might just maul you. Granted, you can do awesome things with those other three syllables independently, which might mitigate some of the cost of this. But you still spent four Advances on Zu syllables, and guaranteed you had 3 other miscellaneous Advances in between, so you've been waiting a 7-Advance-cycle for your damn panther. I feel like paying 4 pool points (from miscellaneous pools) is overkill. But Eero's a stickler for supernatural effects at a big price, so your (or his) mileage may vary.
Honestly, dindenver, Zu syllables are, like anything else, about their clever application. Some people wouldn't be able to make "flower/bloom/florid" do anything useful in a game, where I can see how you might end up being the immortal god-emperor of Ammeni with it. Encourage simple syllables with some utility; we've gotten the best mileage out of simple ideas which are almost elemental in their essence, but when anyone sits down to take a Zu syllable Advance, talk about its utility with them. It's powerful, but I'm not afraid of power in the hands of players, as long as it serves narrative growth in an interesting way, and neither should you be.
Honestly, I think discussing the utility of almost any Advance is worthwhile as it's taken, if it seems even remotely of concern in your eyes, and that goes double for supernatural stuff. If someone says, "I'm building a Secret where I can talk to rocks," it's a good time to clarify what happens when you talk to a rock. Does a rock only know about things that touch it? How much does it really understand about the world around it? Two very different Storyguides might answer that "Rocks really can only answer questions about things actually in the earth -- minerals, ore, plant growth, worms, bugs, etc etc." or "Rocks contain the ancient spirits of the earth, and so can tell you about anything that has passed over or nearby them, but naturally speak quite slowly, and holding their interest is a real trick, or else they fall back into slumber." Choosing how the flavor of these Secrets work, and what you can accomplish with them, helps you set pool cost, gateway Secrets, ability usage, and the like. And THEN you can start to get really improvisational and fun, once the foundation is built.
-shadowcourt (aka Josh)
oliof:
Agreed with all of you. The only thing that speaks against the locality of Zaru is the story of Hanish, which also is local to Maldor. But we're geeking out here big time, either way is right.
Also, Zu has been broken by Absolon and Hanish, which means it can be as powerless as you want it these days. The fact that elves and maldorian mages lust for the words of power is an indicator that they aren't fully bogus, though.
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